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The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

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191–200 of 279 posts

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the New Testament disagrees with your characterization of the Old Testament. Pretty much the entire New Testament goes on about how the Old Testament is a series of stories about how cycles of rule making and rule breaking do not lead to real justice, peace, or life. In particular, both Romans and Hebrews (though not exclusively those books) cite Old Testament stories to make the case that the Old Testament (…

This analysis, while novel and interesting to me, is not supported by the bulk of events in the early Old Testament. I will name some examples of God personally meting out the death sentence en masse as punishment for sin in various books of the Old Testament. 1. The Great Flood (Genesis), 2. Sodom (Genesis), 3. The Plagues of Egypt (Exodus), 4. The Exile of the Israelites from the Promised Land (Exodus). Redemption,…

> This analysis, while novel and interesting to me, is not supported by the bulk of events in the early Old Testament.

Fair enough. But my point was that the analysis was the analysis of the New Testament authors. People are free to provide their own critical analysis, but they're disagreeing with Peter, Paul, and the Jesus of the Gospels even. I think people that hold this viewpoint and care to be rigorous about it would do well to review their arguments.

Regarding your first three examples, in each case the story is about God saving an imperfect group who trusts God:

1. Noah and his family

2. Lot and his family

3. Moses and the Israelites

...to back up to Romans 1, the reward for people who want to run their own show is often... their own show to run. They'll just be doing it on their own. Earth before the flood, Sodom, and recalcitrant Egyptians are all examples of this pattern. But in each of these cases, God decides not to end the story in just desserts but give people another shot to redeem themselves.

I'm refraining from commenting on example 4 mostly because I don't know exactly which even you're referring to (Israel ends up in the Promised Land). But the narrative of the Old Testament is generally Israel deciding to do its own thing over and over, asking for another chance, and getting one.

So one thing people usually have a problem with is the idea that God judges people at all. This usually stems from a belief that loving people don't judge people. This is clearly contradictory to certain tenets of the Bible, including the text of the New Testament. But I think most people, if they stop and think about it, disagree with this sentiment as well. Consider:

- A grown man kicks a toddler. The father of the toddler acts like nothing happened. Dad is a loving guy and wants peace more than judgement. No, a loving father is angry when his family is abused. He expects justice, even.

- A teacher doesn't particularly like a student so he ignores the student. The mother thinks this is messed up but understands the teacher is his own person and makes his own decisions. No, a loving mother gets angry when her kids aren't nurtured and taught properly. She expects corrective action.

In the interest of not writing a novella in an HN comment, I'll wrap it up here, so thanks for reading if you got this far. I appreciate the civil discussion.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#192

> In 2009, the show went completely C.G.I. As much as I love the New Yorker, my fondest hope is that one day the N.Y.C. media will free themselves from whatever repressive authoritarian soul compels them to put those dots in every single acronym and initialism, when the rest of the country abandoned the dots long ago. They even put them in names that once were initialisms but now are genuine names on their own: they…

IIRC the NYTimes at least used to have a policy where it if you pronounce the acronym out loud as a word it doesn't get periods, but does have periods if it would be said out loud as individual letters. E.g., "Joint NASA - E.S.A. space mission launch", "F.B.I. agents meet at FEMA office". As far as that rule would be concerned SOS is pronounced as letters and not as a word perhaps like "sauce". But I've just seen som…

That's the difference between an acronym & an initialism. An acronym is pronounced as a word, but an initialism is just the letters (usually because it cannot be pronounced).

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#193
post #132
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. That characterization of Old Testament vs. New Testament is one of my pet peeves. There's some horrific brutality and violence in the Old Testament. But the overall story is one of Yahweh's love and compassion for his people in a world where everything is falling apart around them. The same theme carries through into the New Testament. If the Old Testament is really as bad as people say then Judaism really ha…

If the Old Testament is really as bad as people say then Judaism really has a problem. But in my experience Jews aren't any more violent than Christians. A group of people is not defined by a 3000-year-old folklore collection. You can’t infer anything about the text this way.

And yet Jews, Christians and Muslims all define themselves based on millenia-old folklore collections.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#194
post #109
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The show is dignified and wholesome. really? I always found it to be quite creepy. The constant obsession with being a "really useful" engine. The shaming of engines who don't toe the line. Victimisation of engines who misbehave. The show makes me strangely uncomfortable for some reason.

As an engineer, being "really useful" is a goal that fits within my worldview as good and noble.

'being useful' is too vague.

You could be really useful to a really shitty employer and yet be a net negative on society.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#195

Thomas & Friends is gold. The show is dignified and wholesome. It is always about respect, diligence, and humility. It isn't there for stupid antics and wacky laughs. It doesn't blast color explosions and ADHD-fueled off-the-charts mind-numbing exuburance to capture kids attention. And it's been doing that for decades (pretty much eternity, as far as kids TV goes). Not since Mr. Rogers has there been a better kids TV…

> Better known as Sir Topham Hatt since the 1950s. Seemingly only in the US ("the Fat Controller is always referred to by his real name, "Sir Topham Hatt" in the US"[0]). I was born in 1990 (UK), and as I recall he was almost always refered to as "The Fat Controller". [0] http://ttte.wikia.com/wiki/Sir_Topham_Hatt#Trivia

yep I can remember reading the book sin th e60's in the UK and its always the fat controller - who incidentally was always portrayed as a blimpish establishment figure

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#196
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason you teach a toddler this should be blindingly obvious. Not at all. People should help out others out of altruism, because they understand that society is cooperative, or because they value other people. "Be helpful or be punished" isn't a lesson I'd want to teach my kid.

But you have to teach altruism, cooperation and the valuing of other people. And you teach it by (gently and respectfully) disincentivizing the opposing behaviors. It's not "be helpful or be punished" it's "don't pour your cereal on your brothers head or you will get time out", "don't wake your brother when he's sleeping or you will get time out" "stop biting your bother or you will get time out", "no you cannot wear…

There is significant difference between punishing absence of good behaviour ("be helpful or be punished" - Henry example) and punishing bad behaviour ("don't pour your cereal on your brothers head or you will get time out" - your child example).

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was still evident that he wasn't left in their forever, as he showed up again next time. "We shall take away your rails," he said. "And leave you here for always and always and always." They definitely wanted the viewer to believe it was permanent for purposes of that episode. And if you watch the scene (linked to elsewhere in the thread), the dominant emotional themes are stubbornness, arguing, physical confront…

I should have been more clear. The very next episode ("Henry To The Rescue"), Henry agrees to help, and leaves the tunnel (which conveniently, The New Yorker writer forgot to mention). https://youtu.be/dWtNGzGZTCo?t=2m28s I agree they left it kinda weird, especially if you only ever watch that one episode. And that's why it was later edited.

The whole article seems very poorly-researched: the primary material wasn't consulted, and it's extremely easily available[0]. The moralising is extremely obvious when you're reading 2-3 stories at a time.

0: https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Tank-Engine-Story-Collection/d...

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#198
post #181
post #3

My mother didn’t let me watch anything but Thomas and Friends. She said after watching Rugrats or Spongebob i would turn into a disobedient brat, but after watching Thomas I was apparently well mannered and well behaved. I ended up becoming a soft well mannered programmer. Fuck you Thomas!

I don't show Thomas to my kids for that reason (and because of the show's racism)[1], but I can totally see where your mother came from. I avoid showing Fireman Sam to my 4yo son because otherwise he channels Nicholas—the self-centered, boastful troublemaker—so much that he's not manageable. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15363728

> Nicholas—the self-centered, boastful troublemaker

Norman Price? He always gets his comeuppance + a fire safety tip. Maybe have a chat after an episode to talk about what happened to Norman & what about his behaviour got him in trouble.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#199
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diligence and selflessness are admirable. Obedience is, at best, sometimes necessary, and at worst a source of atrocities. (You might be thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent_(military)#Common_inten... . The desire to establish—and function under—common intent, whether through consensus or authoritative credence, is an admirable quality in a person. But that is not the same thing as obedience.)

That's a very interesting way of slicing things. You think that the importance of the rule of law (obedience) isn't something which should be instilled at a young age? It's totally possible to simultaneously teach that following and questioning the rules is possible/appropriate/good. Consider that the US military simultaneously teaches the importance of following orders and every soldier/sailor/airman/marines obligat…

> You think that the importance of the rule of law (obedience) isn't something which should be instilled at a young age?

If you think that the rule of law is about obedience, I think you are completely missing the point. The whole point of the rule of law is to avoid arbitrariness in how the state treats people. You could maybe say that it is about obedience of sorts on the part of those people who work for the government, to only use their special powers in line with what the law says. But even then you have the option to resign from the job rather than to obey if you object to what the law says.

While sometimes following rules while at the same time disagreeing with them is appropriate (and that also should be taught to kids), civil disobedience is also a very important factor in fighting injustice, in particular the kind of injustice that the state produces when it rules by unjust law.

Given how much injustice in the world has happened essentially because of obedience to laws, I find it hard to believe anyone would consider obedience a virtue. Laws in general should be followed, but not because it's a virtue to follow laws, but because enlightened self-interest should inform you that a society that has clear rules that everyone is bound by has tons of benefits, because by respecting the rules in favour of others, you gain that others respect the rules in your favour. But whenever that balance is clearly violated, it should be everyone's first priority to disobey.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#200
post #178

Beside specific stories, there are two things in the general set up of Thomas that makes it IMO a toxic show. - The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile. They obey a pompous and capricious elite (humans) and the narrator goes along for the ride. Obeying is very important for Thomas (who's physically constrained to spend his life on rails). He'll do whatever is needed to stay in his master's g…

> The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile

The trains, who have children's minds, are constantly breaking rules, forming petty cliques, tormenting each other, and ultimately getting some comeuppance.

How could they be used to teach obedience if they never showed the folly of not following instructions??

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