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Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

newscientist.com

11–20 of 171 posts

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most people back then didn't go to university. And the OECD compares across 23 developed nations. Though, in my opinion , education quality has gone down. In France, 2010ish?, in my last year of high school (in one of the best parisian high school) there was a boy who couldn't read aloud a text without stumbling. I don't know if this would have happened in the past. But back then only 20k students reached that st…

A stutter is a disability not a sign of lack of intelligence/education.

He didn't stutter when speaking. He just couldn't read as fast as he was talking so he had to stop every few syllables.

In other words, he was 17 and couldn't read fluently. But he wasn't stupid. He was quite conscientious about his side business and bookkeeping.

ps: I stuttered when I was a child.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#12
I don't get it. Why is population ageing affecting Flynn effect? Don't they test each new generation at same time? Or is this longitudinal study of a single generation (which is weird, since we can't measure IQ correctly at later ages).

Alternative hypothesis. Presence of computers/phones reduces need for working memory, so it doesn't get exercised and leads to decline of it.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#13
post #2

OECD 2016 "Young people in England are the most illiterate in the developed world with many students graduating with only a basic grasp of English and maths, an in-depth analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has found. The OECD report rated English teenagers aged 16 to 19 the worst of 23 developed nations in literacy and 22nd of 23 in numeracy. In contrast, pensioners or those close t…

But that's just relative rank between developed nations.

It would be like Ferrari finishing last in a 21st Century car race and concluding that cars are going slower that they used to.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#14
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't IQ tests control for that? I took one as a small child, and while I could read quite well, I don't remember needing to. It was a lot of "use these blocks to reproduce this diagram" and "given these three pictures, which should come next?" type of thing.

The movie idiocracy comes to mind. Apparently the flynn effect slowed down. Some people hypothesize that the wellfare state has a dysgenic effect by redistributing income from high IQ (high income) people to low IQ (low income or wellfare recipients)... It effectively creates disproportionate economic incentives for having children, and some indications put heritability of IQ above 0.7

And by "some people" you mean social darwinists advocating eugenics?

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#15
post #12

I don't get it. Why is population ageing affecting Flynn effect? Don't they test each new generation at same time? Or is this longitudinal study of a single generation (which is weird, since we can't measure IQ correctly at later ages). Alternative hypothesis. Presence of computers/phones reduces need for working memory, so it doesn't get exercised and leads to decline of it.

Each generation is not a 1:1 descendant of the previous generation. Which individuals of the current generation that have children determines the attributes of the next generation. Now for 100 points guess which people (and what attributes they share) have been biggest contributors to the next generation.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A stutter is a disability not a sign of lack of intelligence/education.

He didn't stutter when speaking. He just couldn't read as fast as he was talking so he had to stop every few syllables. In other words, he was 17 and couldn't read fluently. But he wasn't stupid. He was quite conscientious about his side business and bookkeeping. ps: I stuttered when I was a child.

The English word you want is not stutter, but stumble. Stutter (or stammer) is a medical condition, stumbling over words is the result of a poor quality education.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#17
Being a long-suffering thoughtful inquisitive type that can turn their hand to anything I have spent many hours pondering why it seems that most people around me show traits of 'stupidity'.

I've come to the conclusion 'stupidity' is not the issue; 'unthinking' is, and the specific sub-type is 'unable to apply logical analytical thinking'.

I have a relation who, when challenged that the way they're doing some task is the opposite of optimal, responds along the lines "I thought ...". In this case it is a sure sign that no logical analytical thinking took place.

Maybe the crux of the issue is that in general our societies have become so complex and fast-moving that technology, standard procedures (best practice), and fundamental measures of performance are changing so rapidly that very few individuals have the mental energy to keep up throughout their lifetime.

Some I'm sure have become tired of it and given up thinking altogether.

I would suspect many HN readers may have experienced this in their own highly technical fields alone.

For the general population who aren't - or don't want to be - interested in the world in general it's easy to deliberately avoid learning simple tasks and instead 'leave it to an expert' and continue in ignorance, or to expect someone else to have done it for 'convenience', or not want to attempt it because of the dangers due to 'health and safety'.

Here in the UK at least there's a very simple example of the culture behind this: the electric plugs on AC mains-powered equipment.

In the 1970s when a new item of white-goods for the kitchen arrived it was unlikely to have a plug fitted to the cable although some equipment came with a plug - you fitted it yourself and were expected to have the basic knowledge required to unscrew, strip the insulation from the cores, attach wires to poles, screw-down, insert fuse of specified rating, and screw back together. It often had a piece of card slid over the prongs with a diagram to help.

In the 1980s the cable almost always arrived with the cores cut to length and stripped and if you were buying a premium item the plug fitted by the supplier.

By the 2000s the plug was always fitted and more often than not it was molded onto the cable; and yet some of these still have the wiring diagram card attached. The plugs mostly no longer required the 'lid' removing to get to and replace the fuse - there is a captive sliding carrier that pops out when pried with a flat-blade screwdriver.

By the late 2000s the three metal prongs (earth longest, live and neutral slightly shorter) were encased in a plastic sheath which you have to remember to remove or else it won't fit into the wall socket.

Now, all of these incremental creeping changes can be seen as product improvements to provide greater convenience.

But the result is we now have several generations that have no idea about even the basics of the second most important technology in their lives: electricity (after water and food). They need an 'expert' to do it for them.

Ditto for basic plumbing skills, routine car maintenance, and more and more I notice even preparing basic meals, cooking and baking from raw unprocessed ingredients.

Oh, and a humorous anecdote on the subject of food: about 15 years ago a 17 year-old friend of mine was visiting for a week and I asked if she would like fish and chips (fried potatoes to the North Americans!). I grew up on a farm and so fetched the 25kg bag and selected some potatoes ready for peeling and chipping.

This 17 year old (who ate chips from chip-shops frequently) had no idea that to make chips required peeling and slicing raw potatoes and was incredulous at the process; she 'thought' chips just grew as long square pieces of potato - see: "unthinking".

I was left speechless that something that I considered so obvious and fundamental had escaped her for 17 years!

Multiply these examples up for every major and minor aspect of coping in a modern technology-based society and the result is the appearance of 'stupidity'.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#18
post #12

I don't get it. Why is population ageing affecting Flynn effect? Don't they test each new generation at same time? Or is this longitudinal study of a single generation (which is weird, since we can't measure IQ correctly at later ages). Alternative hypothesis. Presence of computers/phones reduces need for working memory, so it doesn't get exercised and leads to decline of it.

Each generation is not a 1:1 descendant of the previous generation. Which individuals of the current generation that have children determines the attributes of the next generation. Now for 100 points guess which people (and what attributes they share) have been biggest contributors to the next generation.

I suppose I'll be the one to post the canonical recap of this concept:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#19
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movie idiocracy comes to mind. Apparently the flynn effect slowed down. Some people hypothesize that the wellfare state has a dysgenic effect by redistributing income from high IQ (high income) people to low IQ (low income or wellfare recipients)... It effectively creates disproportionate economic incentives for having children, and some indications put heritability of IQ above 0.7

And by "some people" you mean social darwinists advocating eugenics?

You don’t have to be an advocate for eugenics to notice a trend.

Everybody these days is a eugenicist in that they all support the idea of helping pregnant women give birth to health children by ensuring they are well nourished and given good medical support. The section of 20th C. eugenics that is controversial is the part that suggests that one section of society should have more or less children.

Re: Average IQ scores seem to have been falling and population ageing may be why

#20
post #10

I like to play a little game I call "HN matter anti-matter" where I notice contradicting articles posted on HN and imagine them colliding and erasing each other... In this case: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age (nautil.us) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15346635

How wisdom and smarts are each are measured are different, which could explain the apparent paradox.
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