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The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

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Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#171

Post by watwut »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #147
derefr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diligence and selflessness are admirable. Obedience is, at best, sometimes necessary, and at worst a source of atrocities. (You might be thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent_(military)#Common_inten... . The desire to establish—and function under—common intent, whether through consensus or authoritative credence, is an admirable quality in a person. But that is not the same thing as obedience.)

That's a very interesting way of slicing things. You think that the importance of the rule of law (obedience) isn't something which should be instilled at a young age? It's totally possible to simultaneously teach that following and questioning the rules is possible/appropriate/good. Consider that the US military simultaneously teaches the importance of following orders and every soldier/sailor/airman/marines obligat…

Obedience shall depend on what the law is. Sometimes laws are immoral and then it is ok to break them. Which is not the same as breaking the law for profit.

And even there, people who run away from soviet union broke the law. It was ok to do so in my opinion. People who were dissenters, owned printers and spread ... ehm ... evil capitalist propaganda broke the law too. It was heroic from them to do so. Likewise with breaking nazi laws.

Likewise with marrying/dating between blacks and whites where it was illegal or helping slaves escape. I am ok with Snowden too.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#172

Post by arethuza »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #169
toyg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, "fat controlla" is alive and well in UK. I personally hate the character and agree with Ms. Tolentino, the whole setup is very regressive. What angers me most is that it exploits British pride in their early railway industry (which is basically dead now, ok, but is still venerated, especially outside of London) to peddle a worldview completely based around hierarchies and the duty of subordinates.

More passengers are carried on the British railways now than ever before, so I wouldn’t call it dead. (Posted from the comfort of an HST on the rural Cotswold Line, slated for part closure 40 years ago and now thriving.)

Indeed - reopening closed lines seems to be very popular here in Scotland - the Borders Line from Edinburgh being the most obvious example although there are others.

I enjoy my commute by train into Edinburgh from Fife - not least because it means I get to go over the Forth Bridge.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#173

Post by eradicatethots »

paulddraper wrote: post #13

Thomas & Friends is gold. The show is dignified and wholesome. It is always about respect, diligence, and humility. It isn't there for stupid antics and wacky laughs. It doesn't blast color explosions and ADHD-fueled off-the-charts mind-numbing exuburance to capture kids attention. And it's been doing that for decades (pretty much eternity, as far as kids TV goes). Not since Mr. Rogers has there been a better kids TV…

It’s clear you really hate fun, but why?

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#174

Post by bildung »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #152
ux-app wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, that's a great characteristic for things. Not so sure about implying that people should be assessed the same way.

You don't think people should strive to be useful? What virtue/goal would you replace usefulness with?

That's a difference! Striving to be useful is not the same as being categorized by the ruler as being useful or not.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#175

Post by scandox »

paulddraper wrote: post #34
ux-app wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The show is dignified and wholesome. really? I always found it to be quite creepy. The constant obsession with being a "really useful" engine. The shaming of engines who don't toe the line. Victimisation of engines who misbehave. The show makes me strangely uncomfortable for some reason.

It doesn't make as much sense for our imminent future state, when robots do all our jobs and we sit around all day, but I like the distinctive "really useful engine" complement. Obedience, diligence, and selflessness are admirable qualities. All kids and adults should strive to be really useful, in the best sense of the phrase. There's far too much narcissism in the world.

> Obedience, diligence, and selflessness are admirable qualities

But to what? These qualities mean nothing in themselves. They are traits, not virtues. A virtue is surely a trait aligned to some kind of positive value.

You can obediently, diligently and selflessly slaughter people all day.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#177

Post by jdietrich »

Aloha wrote: post #109
ux-app wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The show is dignified and wholesome. really? I always found it to be quite creepy. The constant obsession with being a "really useful" engine. The shaming of engines who don't toe the line. Victimisation of engines who misbehave. The show makes me strangely uncomfortable for some reason.

As an engineer, being "really useful" is a goal that fits within my worldview as good and noble.

21st century society considers me extremely useful, because I happen to be very good at solving certain kinds of puzzle. Medieval society would consider me practically useless, because I'm frail, clumsy and almost blind. My usefulness now and my uselessness then is almost entirely a fluke of genetics.

Valuing people for their utility is incredibly dangerous, because it logically invites us to devalue people for their lack of utility. My community is full of broad-shouldered, hard-working men who became economically useless when the coal mine closed. They're not worse than me, they were just born a few decades too late. They deserve every comfort that society affords me, but the fallacy of meritocracy has provided society with a plausible excuse to neglect them.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#178

Post by pygy_ »

Beside specific stories, there are two things in the general set up of Thomas that makes it IMO a toxic show.

- The trains, who have children's minds, are unquestionably servile. They obey a pompous and capricious elite (humans) and the narrator goes along for the ride. Obeying is very important for Thomas (who's physically constrained to spend his life on rails). He'll do whatever is needed to stay in his master's good graces. It is the perfect show to condition child slaves into compliance.

- The trains are racist, and it is normal and acceptable. Steam and Diesel engines loath one another. The show is presented from the steam team point of view, without an ounce of distance. The Diesels have inherent character flaws because of their engines. I just found a recent episode [1] where they kind of address that, but it is AFAICT a recent development.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YUoBOEsB4

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#179

Post by blurbleblurble »

nl wrote: post #161
geowwy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...the mainstream Christian opinion that the Old Testament is vengeful and the New Testament is merciful... That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity.

That's not mainstream Christian opinion. It's fair to say it misses many subtleties of mainstream Christian view, but it is still more true than untrue. The theology of sanctifying grace[1] and the mercy of salvation[2] are both New Testament ideals which are the core of mainstream Christian theology. It's called Marcionism and it's universally condemned by mainstream Christianity. Marcionism is a whole other thing,…

Another example in evangelical Christianity is the "new covenant vs old covenant" theology.

Re: The Repressive, Authoritarian Soul of “Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends”

#180

Post by geowwy »

ux-app wrote: post #140
geowwy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the Bible pretty well. I couldn't get realer.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_kil... seems pretty fked up to me :) I don't know anything about rationalwiki.org, it's the first site that showed up when I googled "old testament character punished" Each statement is linked to Biblical verses though, so any objections would be to the spin they put on it rather than disputing whether those passages are actually there. Basically, old testament…

> seems pretty fked up to me :)

I'm sure it does. You're a product of the Enlightenment and when you read you read the Bible you interpret it as a product of the Enlightenment.

If you want to actually understand what the Bible was trying to communicate you need to remember who the Bible was written by and who it was written for. A Bronze-age Middle-Easterners is going to get a very different message from the Bible than you are.

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