Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a different (admittedly controversial) take, having been on the "tech ladder" for some time now (as a Senior SWE and Lead Engineer): most individual contributors overestimate how much value they actually provide, especially in the Bay Area. That isn't to say we're not under-appreciated and under-compensated (we are both). But realistically much of the time work we do is easily done by literally thousands of ot…
I've come to the realization in my short career that 90% of my time will be spent on activities that produce 10% impact and 10% of my time will go towards activities that have 90% impact. But the 10% time producing 90% impact stems from the fact that I spent the other 90% doing mundane work and understanding the environment/product/whatever problem am working towards solving. As an example, my company uses Django and…
Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
521–530 of 632 posts
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#522Generally there is better advice!
=== Startup Big Point
Here is a big, huge, gigantic point about doing a startup and owning 100% of it: In broad terms, that's the American way!
Or, it's obvious; just look: All across the US, east to west, north to south, from an isolated house in the woods to a crossroads up to the largest cities, sole, solo entrepreneurs start and run successful businesses. No biggie. No tech. No MBA. No venture funding. No team of co-founders. By the millions -- wrong, by the 10s of millions. If that was so difficult to do, then there wouldn't be tens of millions of people doing it.
=== US Mainline Business
What do they do?
Mow grass -- the ones on my street show up with $100+ K of capital equipment counting the truck, the trailer, the mowers, etc.
Note: Now $100 K will pay for one heck of a powerful Web server farm; if you can keep that farm busy, then just at standard ad rates you have nearly a license to print money. Or, for computing, $100 K in capital equipment is now a LOT.
Do auto body repair.
Do other auto repair.
Sell car tires.
Add asphalt to driveways.
Do landscaping, architecture to grass mowing, for good customers, e.g., any company with nice grounds.
A dentist.
A CPA.
A pizza carryout.
A Chinese food carryout.
An Italian red sauce restaurant.
A manufacturer's representative.
A local wholesale plumbing, electrical, building materials supplier.
A wide range of what can be called big truck, little truck businesses -- buy stuff delivered in a big truck and sell it out of a little truck.
Run several fast food restaurants, gas stations with convenience stores, etc.
And on and on.
Generally these businesses have one of the most powerful advantages in all of business -- a strong barrier to entry. That barrier is, and may I have the envelope, please [drum roll], geographical, that is, the businesses are not in competition with anyone more than 100 miles away. In particular they are 100% immune to competition from China. If they are in Tennessee, then they have no competition with anyone in NYS or CA. Etc. So, if they can do comparatively well in a radius of 100 miles, then they can do well for their career.
A huge fraction of the people who pay full tuition for their children at private universities did not take venture capital, did not have co-founders, didn't get an MBA or a STEM field college degree, were nearly never an employee, and were not close to any of the scenarios in the OP.
Okay, that, my friends, is American Business 101 Facts of Life. That's the overwhelmingly popular version of US business and, indeed, US careers. Nothing else even comes close. And the OP is far away from that.
So, take that US business 101 and, with computing, try to do more -- the computing should be an advantage.
=== Being an Executive
Okay, briefly, for being an executive: No security. None. Zip, zilch, zero. No matter what. Instead are an at will employee that at any time can be fired for any reason or no reason. Biggie reasons for getting fired: (A) As in the OP, office politics. E.g., there's gossip (you get accused, tried, convicted, and fired all while knowing nothing about it). (B) The company does poorly. (C) The company does fairly well but gets bought out by another company. (D) The owner has a son and wants to give him your job. Etc. The crucial point is, you don't own the business.
Just as an executive, your skills, alliances, knowledge of your current job, etc. anywhere else with a dime usually won't cover a 10 cent cup of coffee.
Is there a way? Okay, be in sales and have a nice list of your accounts that do well. You don't really want to be the sales manager, just a good sales guy. If your employer goes out of business, gets bought out, etc., then take your customer list to whatever company in the industry wants to server your customer list. Be sure the industry will be solid even if your employer might not be.
There's just no magic to being an executive. And there's nearly no power; instead your job is to get along, go along, and hope nothing bad happens. If you sponsor a new project and it fails, then you have a black mark on your record, and everyone else has an excuse to gang up to fire you. If the project is successful, then you have jealous enemies all the way to and including the BoD.
Part of this is the fact that currently the US economy has about 94 million people out of the labor force. So, mostly, there's no shortage.
Currently it's too common for Mr. Big CEO to wake up, have a bad day, look at his budget and organization, draw a big X, and say "Off with their heads." In this way big, famous companies have suddenly fired dozens, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people. E.g., at one time, as computing was roaring ahead, IBM suddenly went from 407,000 employees down to 209,000. They cleaned out rush hour traffic over big parts of NY, CT, and NJ.
Another time, at IBM Research, a group of about 100 people got into serious political trouble, and when the dust settled a lot of managers were demoted or fired and a about half of the rest, about have high-end Ph.D. holders, were fired. It was all about work-place politics, cliques fighting each other, etc.
Sure, decades ago lots of people could join a company and work until a nice retirement. Things changed slowly. E.g., could work for Sears for decades and retire. Sears? It's about to go belly up, totally. No more; that's rarely the case now. If you really want that, then: (A) Work for a company, e.g., a public utility, where the employees have a strong union and join the union. E.g., at one time could do that with the Bell System. Alas, even Ma Bell didn't last. A local water company might be better. Be careful about a local electric utility since that industry might change a lot before you get to retire. (B) Work for government, local, state, or Federal. Remember, though, even working for government have to be careful about the slot. E.g., don't be a civilian Civil Service employee for the US military: Then some military officer is running the place; they likely have their job changed each two years or so; so a new guy comes in and quickly doesn't like you or your job, and you are OUT. So, each two years you have to sell yourself to another person you never met before. That person can make a big mistake firing you, but, then, you are still fired. So, for a 40 year career, you have to sell yourself to 20 people you never met before, and you have to be 100% successful in all 20 attempts. That's not good job security. (C) Work for, say, some very solid, stable financial institution, maybe The Ford Foundation.
Officer in the US military? Every now and then you are up for promotion, and if you get passed over three times or some such, then you are out. So, as time goes on, the many lower level officers become many fewer upper level officers. It's not at all clear which lower level officers will leave; it is totally clear that nearly all of them will.
Net, it's better to be a non-commissioned officer, e.g., a sergeant where you can keep your job. Even if you get 4 stars, like General Mattis, you can be out because someone up there didn't like you.
Some private companies have personnel policies similar to the military for their officers: They hire lots of people in their 20s, and by age 35 they are in management or out the door. It's not at all clear who will be out the door, but it's totally clear that nearly all of them will be. A lot of those people would be better off in their 20s starting and growing a grass mowing service, quite literally: There's a good geographical barrier to entry, and the grass will keep growing. Commonly in the US, a Ph.D. in electronic engineering will have a better long term career as a licensed electrician. No joke.
I know a guy, bright enough, who got a Master's in environmental engineering. His real career was as a plumber and installer of home heating systems.
=== Being a Founder
What the OP says about being a founder is quite narrow.
I have a high school friend. His father was selling beer for a small brewery. The brewery went out of business, but he knew a lot of people in the beer business. He went to the NW corner of his state, arranged to distribute about six brands of beer (right, the beer came to his warehouse on a railroad siding via railroad freight car) and sold out of little trucks. Somehow people still like beer! He passed the business down to his son. People still like beer! Good business. Darned good business.
If want to go into computing, then be sure you have an even better business than selling beer.
The OP wants to say that the business idea in computing is not very important. IMHO, that's mostly nonsense.
Sure, if want only routine technology, then the OP comments about employees, teams, etc. are important. But a business with only routine technology tends to have a darned small barrier to entry. Sure, one of the best barriers to entry was virality from a social network with a strong network effect, but that's path seems to be about saturated.
Again, there are 94 million people out of the labor force. So, if you want a job as founder of a successful business, then, IMHO, need to do something new and powerful with a good barrier to entry. Basically you have to plow new ground in US business, have to do something those 94 million don't know how to do.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#523I haven't worked for any A-list brand name companies (no Googles or Facebooks) but I've worked for quite a few B-list and C-list corporations and also some B-list startups as a software developer/engineer (including a YC startup) - The startups which I worked for the longest have grown very fast and are profitable.
In spite of this, the last time I was looking to switch companies, the only thing that prospective employers were interested in was my open source work. Nobody was interested in hearing more about the small startups I worked for which ended up becoming successful because they're not A-listers.
I know engineers who work for A-list companies (I've worked alongside some of them in the past), they're very good; but not different from engineers who work for B-list companies; maybe they're better at taking technical tests.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#524Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the note - I’m going to think about this.
Here is a twist on this to think about. Careers are made or broken on whether you get to be an idea person or an implementer. If you're an idea person you get the lion's share of the credit for anything that goes right, and can always blame your failures on the implementor. Plus ideas are easier to come up with than implementations. If you're an implementor you work hard, and then don't get much of the credit. But wi…
That said, I've met quite a few implementers that seem to believe that because it's their hands on the keyboard, no other activity warrants credit, all the way down to the guy who thinks that he commands "respect" (in the gang-sense) because he can shut down the Exchange server.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#525Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here is a twist on this to think about. Careers are made or broken on whether you get to be an idea person or an implementer. If you're an idea person you get the lion's share of the credit for anything that goes right, and can always blame your failures on the implementor. Plus ideas are easier to come up with than implementations. If you're an implementor you work hard, and then don't get much of the credit. But wi…
Is any of that true? Are ideas really that easy? Also these people aren't being paid for ideas. They're being paid for vision and the ability to guide that vision through to completion. I've met FAR more competent implementers in my life than I have product owners. You seem (and others) seem to be arguing that there is some sort of market inefficiency here, but I don't see that. And I say that as an implementer.
Well, bad ideas are easy and plentiful, and then execution is hard and everything.
But good ideas are hard, and then execution is routine.
By an "idea" Doerr meant just some short, off-hand statement, say, at a party or over the family Sunday dinner table, some summary might tell a neighbor over a back fence.
A good idea, however, may come with a stack of solid background research on the market, the problem to be solved, and a really good solution, say, the first good or a much better solution, with good barriers to entry, etc.
Here's an approach: Pick a problem that so far is solved at best poorly but where the first good solution will be close to a must have for enough people and revenue per person to make a successful business.
Then find a good solution. The solution might have secret sauce which was needed to solve the problem (why the problem wasn't solved 10 years ago) and that can also be a big barrier to entry.
It would help a lot to exploit current, comparatively dirt cheap, computing. If you write all your own code, then likely you don't need co-founders.
Venture capital won't much help because by the time you have enough for the VCs to write you a check, you will already have enough in traction that you can monetize to have enough revenue that you no longer need, want, or will accept their check, BoD, term sheet, vesting of what you already own 100% of, etc.
The checkbooks of the VCs were important when a Web site startup needed to spend big bucks with Sun Micro Systems, Oracle, Cisco, etc., but those days are over. Now the prices for such things are WAY down and the checkbooks of the VCs much less important.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#526This is rather true in practice, but I find it tremendously depressing. I have found that the executive path is actually the one that most of the scumbags take, it is the one that attracts the most people, and those people are usually not likable, they're salespeople that sell themselves all day. The third group, the one that actually creates value, is accurately represented as not as successful both in terms of mone…
I have a different (admittedly controversial) take, having been on the "tech ladder" for some time now (as a Senior SWE and Lead Engineer): most individual contributors overestimate how much value they actually provide, especially in the Bay Area. That isn't to say we're not under-appreciated and under-compensated (we are both). But realistically much of the time work we do is easily done by literally thousands of ot…
If have your own business and write your own code, then you get to pick what you want to learn and use and stay with just that. And maybe you already know enough. E.g., if some parts of Microsoft's .NET are enough for what you need to code and you know it, then why rush off to Linux?
E.g., for my startup, I typed in 100,000 lines of typing with 24,000 statements in Visual Basic .NET; it all runs. And I know a lot more in computing but is not popular now. From just what I know, I can't be hired as a programmer, but I have no trouble programming for my startup.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#527Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That isn't to say we're not under-appreciated and under-compensated This is possibly the most HN thing I've ever read. Bay Area developers are under-compensated?
I think he is thinking in terms of shares of the company, not salary. Salaries in the Bay are obviously higher than anywhere else, but what people want is to become millionaires when the company they work for sells to a bigger company.
Seriously, discussions like this just show how out of touch sometimes this crowd is like.
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#528Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that argument goes all the way down the value chain. You'll end up with something like food production > transport > tech. The chain can be as long as you feel too. It is a radical proposition that a farm day laborer adds more value than an elite tech worker because 'the system would stop without food'. The value add is controlled by the person who decides what "value add" is. That is the executive, original prod…
Food surplus comes from mass production not farm hands. The guy who handles 20,000+ acres of crop is more productive than the average dev and makes more money . http://www.cornandsoybeandigest.com/are-1000-acres-part-time... “One of the most difficult factors for many 1,100-acre or less farmers to accept is that, unless they have livestock, they're probably underemployed. Thirty years ago, 1,000 acres was enough to s…
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#529Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ohio, rural Utah.
I've hired people from Ohio. The salaries are higher than 45k unless you are straight out of college.
Also: UK salary ranges are ~$50k-$90k (but you can't save 40%)
Re: Three Paths in the Tech Industry: Founder, Executive, or Employee
#530Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Most companies, particularly most start-ups, suck at sales. "Great engineers, shit sales" is a more common failure mode in Silicon Valley than "sold something couldn't be built." Also, "good at sales" isn't a one dimensional metric. There are different sales processes, some of which some people (and consequently companies) are better at than others. Bad, derivative products hocked by hopelessly deluded people playi…
Lots of good products fail because of bad sales and marketing. These very forums are a graveyard of "how do I find users?" threads.