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A “right to repair” movement tools up

economist.com

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Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#31

Post by Someone »

thechao wrote: post #12
stefco_ wrote: post #6

I hope at some point we'll start including recycling/disassembly and replacement externalities into price somehow. I don't know how you would do that in a fair way, but it is frustrating that there aren't a ton of corrective market forces to encourage manufacturers to make highly reusable, repairable, recyclable devices. All of this electronics churn is environmentally terrible, and it's frustrating that, as with car…

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_producer_responsibili..., which, in the EU, led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni..., which puts the responsibility on manufacturers, rather than sellers. That takes care of that Amazon problem.

As always in the EU, the exact effect of these differs by country (EU directives describe goals, and leave the means to get there to member countries)

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#32

Post by Fej »

MrQuincle wrote: post #4

Is there something a consumer electronics company can do allowing people to update or upgrade components or firmware in such a way that we are not basically forced to void the warranty?

In the United States, a company cannot necessarily void your warranty for repairing a device yourself. See the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warran...

Of course, that doesn't stop them from trying, and usually succeeding, because the FTC has been de-clawed and no one bothers to sue.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#33

Post by zvpxdlk »

4ad wrote: post #17
yahna wrote: post #15

How about right to use your stuff how you want? Like not paying 10s of thousands for a Tesla that has a clause against using autopilot with ride sharing services other than Tesla.

Where do I find all this mythical stuff that I want? I want a new car with no software, no computers, no GPS, no radio, no power windows, no keyless entry, no thermostat. Where do I find it? Realistically I can only chose between crap I don't want. And if I buy an older car, not only I have to deal with problems that would otherwise be avoidable if I bought a new car, but the government doesn't want me to use old car…

Build your own car that fits your dreams perfectly. You have plenty of freedom to choose to do that

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#34

Post by The5thElephant »

xoa wrote: post #20

I will admit that I am not a fan of the "right to repair" movement in terms of what I've seen from it so far when it comes to actual legislative proposals, and I also find a lot of the way it talks down to current consumers and market forces distasteful and short sighted. I can absolutely see how in some areas of production narrowly tailored rules might be beneficial in terms of efforts manufacturers make to prevent…

Oh look someone being reasonable on HN.

There is a distinct pattern in the tech and engineering world of people who assume that what they want is what everyone else wants, and if they don't want that they don't know what is good for them or they've been duped.

Then they get presented with a cogent argument like yours and realize their neat world view isn't so clean cut after all.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#35

Post by teddyh »

SeanDav wrote: post #7

A long time ago I read a Science Fiction short story about a society where everything was unrepairable, throwaway and came with expiry dates. Does not seem too much like Science Fiction nowadays... EDIT: I wonder if anyone might remember the name of the story: The basic plot is a business man living in a throwaway society manages to convince a dying man to sell him his personally developed car. A car that has been bu…

You could always ask at https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ and tag your question “story-identification”.

It isn’t your story, but I am reminded of Philip K. Dick’s Pay for the Printer from 1956: https://web.archive.org/web/20150509063736/http://www.americ...

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#36

Post by 4ad »

zvpxdlk wrote: post #33
4ad wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do I find all this mythical stuff that I want? I want a new car with no software, no computers, no GPS, no radio, no power windows, no keyless entry, no thermostat. Where do I find it? Realistically I can only chose between crap I don't want. And if I buy an older car, not only I have to deal with problems that would otherwise be avoidable if I bought a new car, but the government doesn't want me to use old car…

Build your own car that fits your dreams perfectly. You have plenty of freedom to choose to do that

Actually, no, you don't. Where I live it's almost impossible to make any kind of artisanal car street-legal.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#37

Post by leggomylibro »

_qbjt wrote: post #29

Does anyone know what the best, most-serviceable laptop is in 2017? Looking for something with decent hardware and Linux support. It seems like the trend is toward soldered-on parts.

Look into Clevo/Sager resellers. Places like System76. They can be hit-or-miss - I've had one excellent machine that lasted 6 years, but also one terrible experience with a borked GPU that put me off of them more or less permanently. Getting any sort of support or repairs for parts that you can't replace yourself is difficult.

Still, they tend to have highly modular, easy-to-swap-out parts. Hard drives, wireless cards, RAM, keyboards, battery, it's usually all removable and they sell spares for custom parts like the keyboards. Many of their devices even have a full CPU socket on the motherboard, so you could keep a good one running for a very long time.

If you luck out and get a good one.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#38

Post by Fej »

yahna wrote: post #15

How about right to use your stuff how you want? Like not paying 10s of thousands for a Tesla that has a clause against using autopilot with ride sharing services other than Tesla.

Has anyone tested this clause? Tesla can write whatever they want into a contract; that doesn't mean it'll be held up in the courts.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#39

Post by olympus »

_qbjt wrote: post #29

Does anyone know what the best, most-serviceable laptop is in 2017? Looking for something with decent hardware and Linux support. It seems like the trend is toward soldered-on parts.

In general, it has to be a "regular" laptop, and not an ultrabook. The ultrabooks have gone to soldered in RAM and SSDs to save space.

Try looking at ifixit for repairability scores. They take the laptops apart and show you the internals on the reviews they do. https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability

Of course, cross reference the repairability score with your desired performance and price. Pick any one.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#40

Post by msla »

xoa wrote: post #20

I will admit that I am not a fan of the "right to repair" movement in terms of what I've seen from it so far when it comes to actual legislative proposals, and I also find a lot of the way it talks down to current consumers and market forces distasteful and short sighted. I can absolutely see how in some areas of production narrowly tailored rules might be beneficial in terms of efforts manufacturers make to prevent…

> The fact is that there is an absolutely enormous (and growing) amount of value in a fully trusted hardware stack. Apple has taken a lot of flack from "right to repair" over issues like not being able to "repair" the Touch ID, but I haven't seen any great answers over how to allow any random 3rd party to repair Touch ID without also meaning any random malicious 3rd party (including legitimate repair shops in some scenarios) could replace it with something hostile too.

A trusted hardware stack isn't one that's been locked down by a company, it's one I can modify and control.

In short, I trust that Apple will control any hardware I buy from them, and I trust Apple will always work in Apple's best interests. I cannot trust that Apple's best interests will always align with my own. I cannot trust that Apple's best interests currently align with my own.

> I think a well crafted system might be able to square this via dual chains that an owner could pick on purchase and appropriate manufacturer liability mitigations. So for example you could choose "only Apple may ever modify the trusted core of this device" or "anyone with the key can" and in each case Apple would utilize a separate root private key.

Only if I could revoke the manufacturer's ability to modify my hardware.

> In the latter case Apple would also be relieved of all liability for any damage ever done due to a 3rd party Touch ID repair

This is obvious.

I agree with the rest of your post.

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