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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

harpersbazaar.com

331–340 of 449 posts

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#331

Describing cleaning as emotional labour is weird to me. I'm fully on board with the "many women do lots of emotional labour that goes unnoticed" logic but to me cleaning is labour and that's that. It's a job, and it should be talked about as hard labour, not some mysterious emotional nebula that men avoid because of gendered conditioning. I think the danger here is that by conflating emotional labour and cleaning, we…

I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…

It was an unreasonable request to begin with.

She wanted two things. She wanted someone else to clean the house. This is fine. It happens all the time. But the second thing was that it still had to be done to her exacting standards.

So the request was, in essence, "First, become me. Then do this thing that I want in exactly the way I would do it." Hidden requirements.

The husband, not understanding this, went about hiring the cleaners in his own way, to meet his own standards. I know exactly how I would do it. I would set a budget limit of $300, which is acceptable for the spouse-to-spouse birthday gifts in our household, and try really hard to find someone to clean once a month for 12 months at $25 a pop, which seems like the minimum amount that would be required to get the van to roll, for a 90 minute appointment.

All that "household office work"? Don't do it. Instead of spending 30 minutes on the phone with a cleaning service, haggling and scheduling, scrub one toilet. Instead of vetting a person to make sure they won't pinch your porcelain statuette, vacuum the floors. You don't need administration and management in an organization with less than 6 people in it. If you're one of those "all children are a blessing" families, with 10+ people in one house, yes, someone needs to be a household manager. But for most families, the chore chart is as far as it needs to go. Stop whining about how hard it is to micromanage everything, and let other people have their own responsibilities, with their own performance standards.

If you like everything done just so, you're going to have to be the one doing all the things.

And I know how it would turn out, too. My spouse would end up cleaning the house the day before the cleaners were scheduled, so they wouldn't be cleaning a dirty house. Madness. Knowing this, I would simply get a gift of comparable value that was not requested. And I'm not even going to explain why, because that way leads to a fight.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It came naturally to her." Did it though? A lot of life admin isn't satisfying or enjoyable, it's just a drudge. Are you suggesting that relentless, menial work with no end in sight comes naturally to anyone? I'm single, and I've found ways to keep life admin to a minimum, but when you're running a household there's tons of small jobs that add up. It becomes hard to switch off. I've seen it happen multiple times.

The actual work of cleaning does not come naturally to anyone. The "emotional" work of worrying about cleanliness is a different matter. If she did not care about housework, she would just not do it, not hire anyone else to do it, and the house would be a mess. That's what the husband does and it works for him because that's his personality. He only cares when someone important to him nags him about it, and he has to…

You missed the point of the article. The husband screwed up with the cleaning too, even though he did the cleaning. It was never about the cleaning, per se, but the mental drain of running a household.

Read the article again. This is the key part...

"I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray."

If the idea behind Mother's Day is to give mothers a day off, can you see why the gift of getting cleaners in would've worked, but the gift of offering to do the cleaning did not?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#334
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is she having to do a disproportionate amount of pleasing her partner though? We don't get that perspective, only that she's putting more effort than him into the parts she cares about - which might go both ways.

Yes, but that’s not because she’s a woman (as she appears to claim), it’s because she hasn’t come to some sort of agreement about how to run the house. She’s talking past her husband to millions of people. Had the gender roles been swapped, it would have been a very hard to stomach article for a lot of people.

Which is why it's sexist. The implication is that if her husband were a better feminist he would be perfectly able to anticipate and provide everything she wanted in a friction-free and effortless way.

The fact that he doesn't proves he's still mired in patriarchy, which of course he needs to be educated out of.

Assuming your partner is sort of okay, I guess, but essentially ideologically defective is not a particularly healthy basis for a relationship.

Aside from chores, it's not as it men - feminist or not - never provide emotional support to women. I would be astonished if the husband never listened to problems, provided cuddles and backrubs, and all the other emotional maintenance that men give their partners.

I sometimes think this culture has a very poor record of educating people how adult relationships are supposed to work. Unfortunately this article seems to be an example of that.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#335
It's so bad for me... I read the whole article and I cannot figure out what 'emotional labor' is.

The scenes described play out constantly in my home. There are these major gaffs in both directions: For me, I cannot infer how to set the table from what's on the stove, and my wife is therefore convinced that I have a learning disability.

For her, she is incapable of using the Maps app on her smart phone to help me when our destination changes after departing the house. And I am therefore convinced she has a learning disability.

Let's accept that things are structurally different upstairs and therefore inputs are not processed the same way and therefore the actual problem is not in the wiring, but in our expectations.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#336
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have that backwards. You replied to a comment of mine in a manner that implies a great many negative things about me and my marriage. Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me. Not rebutting them implies that you are correct. Rebutting them has resulted in my comment getting downvoted and now you acting like your feelings of of…

> "Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me." How does the fact that HN is an overwhelmingly male forum make this a no win situation for you? Are you suggesting that only a few HN members could ever see things from your point of view? For what it's worth, I thought that this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15359215 wa…

English is not my mother tongue, so maybe I've done a silly language transfer using "you" to mean "one, people". I've definitely heard native speakers use second person in similar ways though, but mostly British.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#337
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. I'm not sure I needed to read anymore than that. It is a sexist view, by someone who I would suspect would argue they aren't sexist. Based purely on my personal experiences, I've found people who hold such a view tend to have a very fundamental incompatibility in world view from myself.

Please don't take HN threads in ideologically inflammatory directions? That's flamebait if not trolling, and the HN guidelines ask you not to. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'll edit it to remove any references to the latter group I mentioned since they aren't a topic for the article.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#338

"If I were to point out random emotional labor duties I carry out—reminding him of his family’s birthdays, carrying in my head the entire school handbook and dietary guidelines for lunches, updating the calendar to include everyone’s schedules, asking his mother to babysit the kids when we go out, keeping track of what food and household items we are running low on, tidying everyone’s strewn about belongings, the une…

I think that one of the things I'm continuously disappointed in is that comments like this tend to get more exposure and agreement than the concept that the author is trying to bring to light. I get so excited to see discussion about these concepts, but then the idea gets ignored because the author isn't using exactly the right words. It really makes me feel even more isolated and unheard. Yes, communication is a ver…

But you literally cannot discuss something if you don't agree on what's being discussed.

People who understand the grandparents definition of emotional labour are going to read the first couple paragraphs of this article, wonder what the author is on about, and quit reading.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#339
post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

That resonates with me. But I struggle a lot. I feel like my wife's irrationality on some subjects forces us to both spend some of our very limited time here feeling anxious and negative. It's frustrating and feels very one sided. Why can't she meet me half way and stop being so anxious on half the events? Well.. because irrationality doesn't work that way; I get that. I think that true zen for me is finding a way to…

Typically anxiety causes irrationality rather than the other way around. And people with anxiety problems can get treatment, but the treatment is not to just "stop being so anxious."

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual work of cleaning does not come naturally to anyone. The "emotional" work of worrying about cleanliness is a different matter. If she did not care about housework, she would just not do it, not hire anyone else to do it, and the house would be a mess. That's what the husband does and it works for him because that's his personality. He only cares when someone important to him nags him about it, and he has to…

You missed the point of the article. The husband screwed up with the cleaning too, even though he did the cleaning. It was never about the cleaning, per se, but the mental drain of running a household. Read the article again. This is the key part... "I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into…

I agree with you, but I think we are using different semantics.

He technically did the cleaning. He screwed up because he didn't consider what the point of cleaning was (like you say, giving her wife a day off) and he just did something that he thought was approximately equivalent to what she literally asked.

I call that "not really caring". If he cared, he would have realized he should have cleaned the day before and given "a clean bathroom on Mother's Day" as a present instead of "the act of cleaning the bathroom on Mother's Day".

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