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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

harpersbazaar.com

311–320 of 449 posts

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#311
> Disappointed by my unwavering desire, the day before Mother's Day he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself.

and then...

> However, it’s not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patriarchal way. Forcing him to see emotional labor for the work it is feels like a personal attack on his character. If I were to point out random emotional labor duties I carry out—reminding him of his family’s birthdays, carrying in my head the entire school handbook and dietary guidelines for lunches, updating the calendar to include everyone’s schedules, asking his mother to babysit the kids when we go out, keeping track of what food and household items we are running low on, tidying everyone’s strewn about belongings, the unending hell that is laundry—he would take it as me saying, “Look at everything I’m doing that you’re not. You’re a bad person for ignoring me and not pulling your weight.”

When I was a kid, I remember getting frustrated one day when after I decided-- for whatever reason-- that I wanted to "trade licks" with my older, bigger brother. (I.e., I could hit his arm as hard as I could with the understanding he would then be able to do the same to me.)

I distinctly remember both my brother and father-- who were watching this-- both smiling and taking about 30 seconds to carefully (and repeatedly) explain to me exactly what would happen to my arm if I entered into this contract (plus the lack of retribution for the suffering described). Needless to say I decided not to go through with it.

That's all to say-- there is some obvious miscommunication going on here. The author wanted a gift of "cleaning plus", and the husband tells her that a "cleaning basic" quote was too expensive. That is the moment to carefully explain the "plus" part, and how the true cost is at least equal to the cost of "cleaning basic" plus hiring a life-coach for the full duration of the gift to explicitly enumerate each "cleaning plus" task as it happens.

Plus-- since these are adults-- the contingency that if the husband is still so oblivious that he's convinced he can just wing his way through "cleaning plus," to refuse that gift and instead accept something off of Amazon.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#312
Tinges of things like this (along with an Italian matriarch) always made me assume women were just naturally in charge of households growing up.

Though in my household my Dad never really did the things the article mentions (it was more so me and my brother who did), so much as it was that he was often working long hours and couldn't have done a lot of the "activities management" type stuff if he'd tried.

But when he was home it was "Who left this sock in the hallway? Who didn't do dishes?"(prepare to die, he'd have murder in his eye). And he often spent his weekends doing home projects (new sink, new floor, new tile, etc.).

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#313
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comic is really funny, in a bad sense. She should've asked. For one, as someone who enjoys cooking, I really want to be alone in the kitchen. Also, if a person is not considerate enough to help, that won't change. If that guy is not already helping her out in the kitchen, probably he's that type of guy. As I said in another comment, if you want to live with someone who'll automatically help you with the kitchen,…

I think about some things I said in did in relationships in my 20s and cringe. I hope I have gotten massively more in-tune with others' emotions and desires, having read more, witnessed modeling aside from my parents, and gone through a more varied and extensive set of personal and interpersonal experiences to compare with. While I have observed most people's personalities being fairly static, I do think it's possibl…

I don't disagree you, it's possible to morph oneself into an empath, and maybe re-shape one's character and/or habits. But it's lots of effort in vain to try and morph someone else, that's what I am trying to say. Re-reading my comment I see that I could have made it more clear.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But caring about cleanliness wasn't labor for the author. It came naturally to her. If anything, it was the husband that was expected to apply emotional labour to make himself care. Which I now see was the point. Women are traditionally expected to care about their partner's preferences even if they don't really understand or care themselves, while men are expected to be practical, cold and uncaring. Thus gender role…

> "It came naturally to her." Did it though? A lot of life admin isn't satisfying or enjoyable, it's just a drudge. Are you suggesting that relentless, menial work with no end in sight comes naturally to anyone? I'm single, and I've found ways to keep life admin to a minimum, but when you're running a household there's tons of small jobs that add up. It becomes hard to switch off. I've seen it happen multiple times.

The actual work of cleaning does not come naturally to anyone. The "emotional" work of worrying about cleanliness is a different matter.

If she did not care about housework, she would just not do it, not hire anyone else to do it, and the house would be a mess. That's what the husband does and it works for him because that's his personality. He only cares when someone important to him nags him about it, and he has to "work" to at least pretend to care.

The actual work of cleaning the house he did, eventually. He never did the emotional work of convincingly pretending to really care about it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…

I think you missed the point. Yes, she wanted a house cleaning service. But that’s not the gift she wanted. The gift she wanted was for her husband to magically divine that she wanted him to use her emotionally-laden approach (seeking recommendations via social) to solving the problem of hiring the service instead of his pragmatic approach of identifying the cost of the service, which he then used his prior training…

It seems to me that she felt like his attempt to do the task was pretty half-hearted.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#316
post #286
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really uncomfortable reading these insults, even if they're deserved. More so because they're in response to a comment of mine (even though I'm not the destination). I'd be so pleased if you removed them. That said, I do understand where you're coming from (both through empathy and some cases I personally know). But you should see that we agree: he probably was a bad choice for you. People always hide their bad p…

You have that backwards. You replied to a comment of mine in a manner that implies a great many negative things about me and my marriage. Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me. Not rebutting them implies that you are correct. Rebutting them has resulted in my comment getting downvoted and now you acting like your feelings of of…

> "Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me."

How does the fact that HN is an overwhelmingly male forum make this a no win situation for you? Are you suggesting that only a few HN members could ever see things from your point of view?

For what it's worth, I thought that this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15359215 was a little too callous, but not in an intentional way. Talking about relationship problems in broad strokes after someone gave specific details about an old relationship is almost never going to end well, as it sounds like they're summarising a relationship they have no knowledge of. However, I get the sense that gkya was talking in broader strokes to talk about patterns rather than single cases, so whilst it sounded like it was about a specific relationship considering the context, in practice it was just a badly directed comment, in my opinion.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#317
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's the wrong term. She objects to having to manage some of the household tasks. She doesn't want to manage the housecleaning or manage child care. Fine. Managing is work. No need for the different nomenclature.

Sometimes the hardest thing for a manager is to give up managing something. Being in control is not a pure cost. Managing is work, but it's also prestige, power, and security. It's also easy to delude yourself into believing that you have "higher" standards, when all you have is different wants. And if you're a manager, chances are you're a better debater and negotiator, so your beliefs are sheltered even if you're w…

Artfully articulated.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#318
post #251
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

Basically, the term emotional labor gets used a lot to mean "women's work" and especially to refer to the largely invisible parts of what women are expected to do. I don't like that usage, but I usually don't bother to nitpick it. I do understand why this is kind of a hot topic and why the term emotional labor gets applied to it. I don't have a better solution. It seems like there simply isn't a good way to talk abou…

It does seem kind of confusing. The first time I encountered the term "emotional labor" it referred to aspects of customer service work (like responding politely to abusive customers, being performatively cheerful, etc) and it was intuitive to me what it meant. Using the term to mean unpaid, typically female labor seems less intuitive.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#319
This article confuses and conflates 3 things.

1. Chaos muppet theory. In this article, the wife is the order muppet, and the husband is the chaos muppet. Is this gendered? I don't know. My sister and I are both order muppets and our spouses are chaos muppets. That means in my household, the man (me) takes on what the author calls 'emotional labor' but is more like 'management labor'. There are a large number of household things I take on because I feel like I must. This is not about my wife, it's about my own neuroses and desire for order. And it's not about division of labor, because we have a very ad-hoc system of who makes dinner, does the dishes, etc etc. That kind of stuff is more about who is busier and who has more free time. If I have to study for a test I try my best not to feel bad about just walking out after eating dinner and leaving the dishes, and just as often I start cleaning up while she reads an interesting article. I'm sure if you asked my wife and I separately, we would both say we take care of 60% of the work and the other does 40% :)

2. Responsibility for emotions. Is this gendered? The author makes a good argument for the expectations society has put on women to not be a burden or a nag, to manage emotions and expectations, and so on. I'm sure some men take this on more than their female partners, but I find it very plausible or likely that the author is correct that it's more frequently women doing this work. It's not the same about who is more emotional; it's entirely possible the man could be much more of an emotional person yet not take on the responsibility of managing others emotions (in fact, that might be what's happening in the article if the woman feels she needs to tip-toe around his feeling so much).

3. Actual household work. Flat out work. Child care, cooking, cleaning, picking up the dry cleaning, whatever. I'm sure many tomes have been written about the gendered roles and expectations and how these have changed over time and the work that remains to be done if one's desire is to equally partition these tasks.

[1] http://www.slate.com/articles/life/low_concept/2012/06/what_...

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#320
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have that backwards. You replied to a comment of mine in a manner that implies a great many negative things about me and my marriage. Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me. Not rebutting them implies that you are correct. Rebutting them has resulted in my comment getting downvoted and now you acting like your feelings of of…

> "Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me." How does the fact that HN is an overwhelmingly male forum make this a no win situation for you? Are you suggesting that only a few HN members could ever see things from your point of view? For what it's worth, I thought that this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15359215 wa…

And yet you are crabbing at me instead of them. Why is that?
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