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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#301
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author sounds like someone with an undiagnosed personality disorder. Normalizing behavior like this is ridiculous.

I was married to a woman who (after marriage) was diagnosed with a personality disorder. Reading this article was like a look back into my marriage. I was always being told about everything I did that failed to meet her standards, or failed to do at all, and how it was because I didn't care about her enough to do it the way she wanted it done. Then, when I'd try to do things in anticipation of her ever changing prior…

It sounds like a bit of a fine line between (in the author's case) taking responsibility for managing HIS emotions for HER complaints towards him, and your example, which is more like emotional blackmail.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#302
post #220
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say she is a meticulous planner, and maybe that's the case, but maybe you are missing the point(as is most of the other commenters here). the point isn't whether it's Restaurant A or B, the point is you have to make a decision about A OR B, or even going out to a restaurant at all. Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, y…

You're exactly right, this was the point I was trying to make. I never realized this before. I used to only see it rationally, that she should choose since she cares and I don't. But then it turned into her always choosing and having to decide and plan it. Once I realized this is what was happening I made a conscious effort to ease that burden and take my share of the emotional labor. Of course choosing a restaurant…

My spouse has assumed the responsibility for ensuring that the family has a dinner every evening. I have assumed the responsibility for ensuring that every individual family member is capable of providing their own dinner from available materials every evening, if they choose to eat a dinner.

This is "give a man a fish" versus "teach him how to fish".

In this, we are at cross-purposes. I can prepare salubrious meals. I rarely have the opportunity to do so, because the spouse oversupplies the household needs, such that on days when no meal is freshly prepared, there are still 3 to 4 different choices for which leftovers to eat.

I frequently get asked about what requests I have for the grocery shopping. My response is always "get nothing", because our standards for the conditions differ so widely. This is not "get nothing specifically for me," but "do not go grocery shopping at all." When I look in the pantry and see enough food to last for three months, my spouse sees the same, and thinks "OMFG, we literally have nothing to eat; I need to buy more food right now." I could draw up an inventory and 90 meal plans using nothing but what we have on hand, and hear, "We're not eating that."

In a sense, the burden of that "emotional labor" is piled upon a great sleigh of my spouse's own making. I cannot explain, "You should not be worrying about doing this, because this is a thing that no one needs to do." It gets done anyway. Often, the emotional and communications effort of worrying about doing the thing, or convincing me to do the thing, is greater than the actual physical effort of actually doing it and being satisfied with the result.

Like some cousin posts, I often have no specific preference for what I may eat for dinner. I will literally eat garbage (if it's on top--the Costanza rule). As such, about any restaurant with a food safety inspection score rated at "Waffle House" or higher works for me. In the rare instance where I actually do want something specific, my suggestion is usually countermanded by, "I don't want that. Pick something else." You can imagine my "WTF face".

It is largely self-flagellation. The only way I could ease the burden is by taking away my spouse's freedom to make those irrational choices, which results in a different set of problems. Or maybe by springing for some deluxe anxiety counseling. In this instance, choosing the restaurant is like volunteering to wash a compulsive hand-washer's hands once a day. Even if you are a surgery nurse, and have perfect scrub-in technique, your hand-washing will not relieve the emotional burden, because the irrational compulsion is still there. It's not something you can share.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#303

I love working 10+ hours a day to pay for 100% of me and my fiancé's expenses, coming home, cooking dinner, and cleaning up everything while she studies for med school; going to bed early so I can do some shopping before work; and then being told I'm a useless man by some nobody with a shitty marriage on a website that's supposed to be about technology.

Nobody is calling you useless. Clearly, you've done your share (quite possibly, more than your share) of emotional labor / domestic work in your relationship. But surely you know that you are defying norms here? Statistically speaking, those burdens do fall on women far more often than on men: http://blogs.reuters.com/equals/2014/03/12/more-work-and-les...

It's not the greatest article in the world, but the main message, that women are expected to perform unacknowledged emotional labor to a higher degree than men, is largely valid, even if the author's examples were not the greatest. Even from a young age women are pushed into emotional labor. For example, the only "odd jobs" I was ever offered as a pre-teen were for babysitting, which is a very emotionally demanding job (kids are jerks) that I hated. I wasn't even paid at minimum wage because I just didn't know any better at that age, and despite asking around, I couldn't get any gigs for different work. Meanwhile my male peers got neighbors asking them to mow lawns and clean cars, which I would have greatly preferred to chasing little jerks around and making them happy enough to not complain to their parents about everything.

From a software dev perspective, I usually see this come through in the form of unequal expectations placed on male vs female PMs. I remember overhearing a colleague describe a highly professional PM to a new dev candidate as as the "Team Mom". Now, I've never ever heard anyone call a male PM call "Team Dad". But because this PM happened to be female, a parent, and not emotionally idiotic, they would always make her take the burden for working out inter-personal conflict, even for teams she wasn't responsible for. She had tons of other work, and there were male PMs and managers who could have assisted, but none of them would. They would just wait for things to get terrible and then throw a meeting at her about "conflict resolution". She hated it, but was afraid that she wouldn't be seen as a team-player if she didn't go along with it, so she just did it.

So that's another example of why emotional labor stinks and does disproportionately impact women, even in tech. Fortunately, the easiest way to fix this is just to pay attention and notice when it happens, in other words, perform emotional labor to notice when emotional labor is not equal. If you're doing that, great, this article wasn't about you.

Doesn't mean that the author was wrong for calling out a pattern of inequality that can be identified, or that HN readers are wrong for taking interest and engaging with her arguments. I suggest you perform some emotional labor on yourself right now, because this article is really not about you or your feelings at all. It's about a widespread pattern of inequality that impacts women disproportionately.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#304
post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

>It's real and I decided to do take up more of this emotional labor in life.

Hey man, if you dont mind me asking. Has your sex life improved after you changed your behavior. I remember reading about "choreplay" somewhere but not sure if it actually works.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#305
post #286
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really uncomfortable reading these insults, even if they're deserved. More so because they're in response to a comment of mine (even though I'm not the destination). I'd be so pleased if you removed them. That said, I do understand where you're coming from (both through empathy and some cases I personally know). But you should see that we agree: he probably was a bad choice for you. People always hide their bad p…

You have that backwards. You replied to a comment of mine in a manner that implies a great many negative things about me and my marriage. Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me. Not rebutting them implies that you are correct. Rebutting them has resulted in my comment getting downvoted and now you acting like your feelings of of…

If I couldn't get my point across, that's probably my bad; I wasn't implying your person with the pronoun you in that comment, I'm sorry. I was trying to talk about relationships in general. And I may have misunderstood you, I'm sorry about that too. But this is a discussion, not a contest of who's offended whom more, or of correctness.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#306

I'm not sure I buy this. In my experience at least, it all comes down to standards — it sounds like this woman has higher standards for what constitutes a "running household", and gets frustrated when her husband doesn't share those standards. It sounds like he would be content with boxes on the floor, dirty bathrooms, etc. When she asks him to raise the house to her standard, she is asking him to adopt her perspecti…

I'm not in love with the phrase "emotional labor" but I would suspect if you reflect more deeply you will see the scenarios in this article playing out in your own and others' relationships. It's not really about standards, more the fact that it's not fair to women when the default assumption is they are in mental charge of household and child-rearing duties - certainly when both partners are working. I'll share a co…

> https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

This comic calls it the mental load, the posted article calls it emotional labor. Based on some additional googling, I think mental load is the more established term.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#307
post #216
post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

You say she is a meticulous planner, and maybe that's the case, but maybe you are missing the point(as is most of the other commenters here). the point isn't whether it's Restaurant A or B, the point is you have to make a decision about A OR B, or even going out to a restaurant at all. Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, y…

The woman often takes that role on herself and refuses to relinquish it ever, though. If the man constantly decides, she will complain and second guess his usurpation of her emotional labor.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#308
post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

This is awesome. You are $.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#310
post #305
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have that backwards. You replied to a comment of mine in a manner that implies a great many negative things about me and my marriage. Those implications are entirely inaccurate, but given that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, it is a no win situation for me. Not rebutting them implies that you are correct. Rebutting them has resulted in my comment getting downvoted and now you acting like your feelings of of…

If I couldn't get my point across, that's probably my bad; I wasn't implying your person with the pronoun you in that comment, I'm sorry. I was trying to talk about relationships in general. And I may have misunderstood you, I'm sorry about that too. But this is a discussion, not a contest of who's offended whom more, or of correctness.

So, when you tell me to delete something because it offends you, that's fine. When I tell you that your remark was just as offensive to me, you add yet another criticism of me to your track record and act like I am behaving badly for mentioning that I am offended.

This is exactly why emotional labor is a popular catch phrase: Because women are expected to care deeply about how men feel and to twist themselves out of shape to cater to the feelings of men. But, how women feel is not supposed to matter.

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