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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#291

Post by klipt »

zie wrote: post #216
nkrisc wrote: post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

You say she is a meticulous planner, and maybe that's the case, but maybe you are missing the point(as is most of the other commenters here). the point isn't whether it's Restaurant A or B, the point is you have to make a decision about A OR B, or even going out to a restaurant at all. Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, y…

> Women generally do that thinking

Funny how the stereotype reverses after marriage.

While dating, the trope (especially with platforms like OkCupid) is that the man has to perform all the emotional labor:

He has to write tons of messages just to get a first date, pick a good restaurant (and pay for it!), be witty and entertaining all evening, and be just the right amount of seductive (but not come on too strong) in order to "win" a second date.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#292

Post by Waterluvian »

mercer wrote: post #205
zubspace wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a similar position. My wife's a planner. She over-thinks alot, creates lists for everthing and needs to discuss details with me/friends/parents which most of the time I deem unnecessary. I realized that I can't change her. There's no single solution, but there are a few things she did, which helped her being more relaxed: Yoga, talk therapy, less coffee/more sleep, taking time outside of family. She also had i…

And in some cases satisfy the need/desire despite it seeming unnecessary or illogical (or even problematic). This is something I struggle with immensely, and ironically for no logical reason!

Yes! I've been working really hard to accept this and just go with it: sometimes it's perfectly okay to accept an irrational situation and move forward with it. This week it's to stop trying to fight the concept that we're grown adults and it shouldn't matter how our family judges the quality of our yard. Instead, it's to go out there and do what I deem to be an unnecessary mow and trim. The absolute bottom line is that I got more exercise, enjoyed the waning summer weather, and my wife feels happier.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#293

Post by renlo »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #7

I'm not sure I buy this. In my experience at least, it all comes down to standards — it sounds like this woman has higher standards for what constitutes a "running household", and gets frustrated when her husband doesn't share those standards. It sounds like he would be content with boxes on the floor, dirty bathrooms, etc. When she asks him to raise the house to her standard, she is asking him to adopt her perspecti…

My father has a higher standard of cleanliness than my mother. When my father leaves for work trips I've noticed that my mother will do the dishes once every couple of days, whereas when my father is around he does the dishes daily. My father tends to do all of house cleaning because he likes things to be clean. They do not quarrel about it, they do not even talk about it, my father simply does the cleaning (I think he enjoys the act of cleaning to be honest).

Sounds to me like the partners in the article have a dysfunctional relationship and this isn't really a gendered issue but a "people issue". My experience probably isn't the norm though (both of my parents are engineers with careers) so I understand that this probably colors my perception of this not being a gendered issue, just wanted to offer a contrary perspective to the one posed in the article.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#294

Post by chillingeffect »

lliamander wrote: post #277
troupe wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried that and it usually goes like this... :) Her: Where are we going to eat? Me: Restuarant A. Her: But restaurant B has X. Me: Sounds good. Let's go to B. Her: But you wanted to go to A. I think the trick may be deciding before it becomes a decision on her radar in the first place.

> I think the trick may be deciding before it becomes a decision on her radar in the first place. One way my wife and I handle this is to have separate responsibilities that we each own. For instance, I handle bills. Not because I'm better at it, but because it causes her more stress than it causes me. I also proactively communicate our financial status, so that she isn't surprised by anything.

If there's a "trick," it's to have an interesting, playful discussion about it, previewing and anticipating all the choices and their potential sensory impacts and feelings and emotions of the whole experience, including the trip there and back.

With both of you visualizing and making connections and learning about each other, you're making fun, exciting memories to the point that the dinner just restates or cements the pre-experienced sensorium. :)

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#295

Post by dang »

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #259
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

>That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.” >Walking that fine line to keep the peace and not upset your partner is something women are taught to accept as their duty from an early age. >My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. >However, it’s not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patr…

>My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. I'm not sure I needed to read anymore than that. It is a sexist view, by someone who I would suspect would argue they aren't sexist. Based purely on my personal experiences, I've found people who hold such a view tend to have a very fundamental incompatibility in world view from myself.

Please don't take HN threads in ideologically inflammatory directions? That's flamebait if not trolling, and the HN guidelines ask you not to.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#296

Post by BeetleB »

zie wrote: post #216
nkrisc wrote: post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

You say she is a meticulous planner, and maybe that's the case, but maybe you are missing the point(as is most of the other commenters here). the point isn't whether it's Restaurant A or B, the point is you have to make a decision about A OR B, or even going out to a restaurant at all. Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, y…

>Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, you just don't care. The point is, she is still doing the emotional labor, because she has to think about dinner tonight for both of you, and if it should be a restaurant, or making it at home or whatever.

You say that someone has to think about it. But do they?

When I'm suffering from decision fatigue and I have to make a decision on something I don't find too valuable (where to eat), I'll literally flip a coin or use a random generator.

It offloads the burden tremendously.

The issue the author has is not that the burden isn't being shared. It's that the values are different. I don't know about her, but I've met people for whom flipping a coin is not an acceptable answer - because they care, and they don't want a flippant method of deciding.

The conflict is that one side cares and the other doesn't.

And part of the problem is that not everyone takes ownership of the issues they care about. If you care about a lot of things, then yes, you will feel the burden.

I like a clean house. It makes me feel much better than an untidy house. But I also feel that burden of cleaning, and the burden is worse than the feeling I get in an untidy house. So I keep it tidy enough such that there is a balance. Not too overburdened, and not too untidy.

In my experience, most people do not understand this tradeoff. They'll have high standards, but will not to bear the burden of those standards, and will be impatient with everyone who has lower standards.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#297

Post by dang »

hasbroslasher wrote: post #218
BarkingChicken wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…

My response, then, is "Oh poor you! You have to call the proletarian house cleaners, rub shoulders with the 'help'! How difficult it must be." Leftist cynicism aside: I'm talking more about the "socks on the floor, chair in the way, keeping the house in order mentally" side of things

This breaks the HN guidelines, which say:

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize.

So would you please not comment like this? It takes effort not to, but it's effort we all need to make if this community is to not suck. I'm tempted to call it emotional labor but I suppose that would be trolling.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#298

Post by ZenoArrow »

saint_fiasco wrote: post #238
nkrisc wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's emotional because one partner is expected to care about it while the other may remain indifferent. Sometimes your partner needs you to care so they can take a break from doing so. Now deep down you don't have to really care; there are things I do for my wife not because I care whether it gets done, but because I care for her and if she wants me to care, then damnit I'm going to care.

But caring about cleanliness wasn't labor for the author. It came naturally to her. If anything, it was the husband that was expected to apply emotional labour to make himself care. Which I now see was the point. Women are traditionally expected to care about their partner's preferences even if they don't really understand or care themselves, while men are expected to be practical, cold and uncaring. Thus gender role…

> "It came naturally to her."

Did it though?

A lot of life admin isn't satisfying or enjoyable, it's just a drudge. Are you suggesting that relentless, menial work with no end in sight comes naturally to anyone?

I'm single, and I've found ways to keep life admin to a minimum, but when you're running a household there's tons of small jobs that add up. It becomes hard to switch off. I've seen it happen multiple times.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#299

Post by nkrisc »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #289
nkrisc wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you're single this is all moot anyway, the point I'm making is about a relationship. I'm also not talking about hobbies, there's no problem there. I'm also not talking about when I go for lunch while at work, because it's just me. I'm talking about the sorts of things that are necessary to run the household my wife and I share. The thing is, yes, maybe one doesn't need to plan all this out and this emotional…

I don't want to argue with you, because I admire those that consider the needs of others and put that consideration into practice, but I can see BearGoesChirp's point too. Let's take food as an example. Having a well stocked kitchen is something that requires planning, but how much planning is required for each meal? Sometimes when you have something particular in mind that takes extra preparation time, but it's ofte…

I don't mean to argue since this is entirely personal and different for other people. If that's the dynamic you have and everyone is happy, great. My point was I thought that's the dynamic we had, but it really wasn't. I became aware of it and made an effort to share the effort.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#300

Post by dang »

seattle_spring wrote: post #85

I love working 10+ hours a day to pay for 100% of me and my fiancé's expenses, coming home, cooking dinner, and cleaning up everything while she studies for med school; going to bed early so I can do some shopping before work; and then being told I'm a useless man by some nobody with a shitty marriage on a website that's supposed to be about technology.

I can understand why you'd feel that way. Venting like this is usually really bad for the kind of discussion we're hoping for here (the thoughtful kind!) but your comment interestingly makes up for it by being grounded in personal experience. That makes the feeling easier to relate to. It seems more genuine.

I think you might be under a mis-impression of what Hacker News is. It's for stories that gratify intellectual curiosity, and definitely not just about technology. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Face stickers of the 18th century French aristocracy, to mention just one recent submission, are quite on topic.

Does this story do that? Well it's complicated but yes I think it does in part. The thread is surprisingly non-horrible (edit: or was when I saw it, anyhow) and the concept of emotional labor is intellectually interesting, even if the article does hit some bruised areas and is trollishly packaged. That makes it an exception to the rule, which is also interesting in a meta sort of way.

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