Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#251

Post by Ntrails » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #194

chrisseaton wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English and other liberal-arts degrees are universities and schools This is such nonsense. Most jobs don't care what degree you have as long as you have a degree, and with an English degree you can apply for 90% of jobs. You could graduate and go on to be anything from an advertising executive, to a soldier. Most jobs don't care - it's technology that's unusual.

That's largely true for an undergrad degree. For a graduate degree, and a PhD in particular, there aren't a lot of alternative employment options. I've been told that having a PhD in those fields makes you less employable for positions in general (because why are you applying for this job, and it is uncomfortable to hire an older person with a PhD for an entry-level position).

An unqualified 30 year old going for a grad position will face the same age bias regardless of whether there was a phd in their past or just 6 years of working in ski chalets.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#252

Post by dvvc » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #83

The fact that the article features an English professor is unsurprising. This is a supply-side problem--liberal arts degrees are in relatively low demand, but institutions continue to graduate students at unsustainable levels. No one is telling the students that they're spending 4-12 years getting an education which is worth less than what they're paying for it. For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English…

This is not about the teaching discipline. I am a Computer Science adjunct, and the salary I get from teaching is equivalent to what the article mentions.

I only do this because I like teaching, so this is not my main source of income. I am not in the verge of homelessness because I do programming for a living. But the problem is still the same: Universities are charging astronomical tuitions and then paying a laughable part of them to teachers.

It does not make any sense, and IMO that explains in part why University education is losing its value: you get overworked and unmotivated teachers as a student, so you may better learn your stuff online.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#253

Post by icantdrive55 » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

glonq wrote: post #225

chrisseaton wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English and other liberal-arts degrees are universities and schools This is such nonsense. Most jobs don't care what degree you have as long as you have a degree, and with an English degree you can apply for 90% of jobs. You could graduate and go on to be anything from an advertising executive, to a soldier. Most jobs don't care - it's technology that's unusual.

> Most jobs don't care what degree you have as long as you have a degree Then why do they require a degree at all? What specific skills will a degreed applicant have that a high school grad won't?

Somedays I wonder.

After I graduated, I really felt it was a whole lot of busy work.

If I owned a company, a collage degree would be not required. Hell--I might even wave a high school diploma.

I would require specialized tests. Tests that cover a wide range of subjects, and specialized tests.

If they can pass them, they get the job.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#254

Post by FrozenVoid » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #14

With companies no longer requesting university degrees, online learning (like watching Harvard courses) becoming more popular and in some countries university being outragous expensive, the future of universities is bleak because people will stop going there. And that of acadamics teaching is even worse. The internet will cut all middleman, and teachers being the middleman between you and knowledge, or gatekeepers to…

The whole system reminds me of professional taxi drivers and Uber drivers. The established education system is based on legal proof and bureaucratic paper trails(analogous to taxi medallions), made to guarantee some level of competence(being a taxi driver vs Uber driver).

The whole prestige of academia isn't access to information: internet has more academic content than any university(e.g. Sci-hub, Arxiv, book sites, online courses). Universities own vast collections of lab equipment/tools/devices which universities can afford due economy of scale(serving groups), this "lab-grade" stuff is out of budget for most people. Of course there are areas where research can be done with older, cheaper and simpler equipment, but cutting edge science is confined to top-hardware owners: An example is amateur astronomers having much less capable telescopes and recording equipment, but still capable of advancing science with affordable devices.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#255

Post by chasing » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

wfo wrote: post #91

Say it with me friends and colleagues, Union. This is the future for all of us, when programming becomes commoditized just as teaching has. When our salaries are pushed to the bottom. We are not owners, we are not capitalists, we are not bosses, we are people with a skill you can learn on the internet and a corresponding talent for it. Either a) this will happen to us as programmers, b) we have credentialing and gate…

Yup. If you want money, you need leverage. Unions provide that.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#256

Post by bjd2385 » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

I don't understand why this is such a big story. It's not localized to academics.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#257

Post by tpeo » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #163

khawkins wrote: post #83

The fact that the article features an English professor is unsurprising. This is a supply-side problem--liberal arts degrees are in relatively low demand, but institutions continue to graduate students at unsustainable levels. No one is telling the students that they're spending 4-12 years getting an education which is worth less than what they're paying for it. For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English…

> For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English and other liberal-arts degrees are universities and schools This is such nonsense. Most jobs don't care what degree you have as long as you have a degree, and with an English degree you can apply for 90% of jobs. You could graduate and go on to be anything from an advertising executive, to a soldier. Most jobs don't care - it's technology that's unusual.

You know, that's a problem too. I mean, I take that 90% of jobs aren't specialized positions. Once you need a college degree for a position that only requires general skills, or in which the employee can do just fine on-the-job training and experience, then what are those years in college for exactly?

As far as I know, people could get by with a high school degree in the 1970s: there was no significant wage difference between a high school graduate and a college graduate, and both faced similar rates of unemployment. Nowadays employers take for granted that candidates must have some form of qualification, even for positions that don't seem to require it. Has the quality of education fallen and the grades been inflated to such a point where degrees are no longer reliable signals of productivity?

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#258

Post by Retric » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #210

Retric wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our largest organizations don't have pervasive hierarchy and meetings which break down at extreme sizes. Markets for example are self organizing around price. Countries may or may not be even larger scale organizations. You can find smaller scale versions that operate on similar principles. https://hbr.org/2013/11/hierarchy-is-overrated

A market isn't an organization, and how would a university organize itself like a market?

Your begging the question by assuming things without hierarchy are not organizations. Look at the shifts in say the Chinese economy as overall planning was reduced and it was far from a 100% binary transition. Or in a larger scope countries are organizations with leadership but rarely low level direction.

As to Universities Students already self organize around major creating an internal market. Some Universities try and limit the sizes of various Majors, but that's far from necessary. You generally allow professors to seek outside funding for post docks etc without command and control oversight.

You could use internal markets to make various decisions such as funding allocation. Though self organization is often just as efficient.

Net result, you can easily have a University without a president/CEO. Their are even plenty of historic examples of this.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#259

Post by badminton1 » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #163

khawkins wrote: post #83

The fact that the article features an English professor is unsurprising. This is a supply-side problem--liberal arts degrees are in relatively low demand, but institutions continue to graduate students at unsustainable levels. No one is telling the students that they're spending 4-12 years getting an education which is worth less than what they're paying for it. For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English…

> For the most part, the only jobs that hire for English and other liberal-arts degrees are universities and schools This is such nonsense. Most jobs don't care what degree you have as long as you have a degree, and with an English degree you can apply for 90% of jobs. You could graduate and go on to be anything from an advertising executive, to a soldier. Most jobs don't care - it's technology that's unusual.

That's right. With a music composition degree you can be a Chief Security Officer at large companies such as Equifax.

Re: Facing poverty, academics turn to sex work and sleeping in cars

#260

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #213

rayiner wrote: post #202

If someone had written an article about struggling actors turning to sex work and sleeping in cars, nobody would blink an eye. Acting pays little for the same reason being an academic pays little. Lots of people want to do it, but there is limited demand, hence only the really exceptional folks make any money doing it. Obviously, people shouldn't need to sleep in cars. But the answer to that is a basic income. It's n…

>> Obviously, people shouldn't need to sleep in cars. But the answer to that is a basic income. Here we go again. Please show evidence that it works. Oh right, there isn't any. Please point to a reasonably complete economic model that shows it will work.

It works. Why wouldn't it? In the US, we spend roughly 4-10k* per capita in welfare, housing and transfer payments. That means we already spend enough to instead give 4-10k/person/year in BI.

In NY, homeless people cost the city over $40,000 per person! And there isn't even much to show for it!

Wars on and Poverty and Drugs have spent billions, also without improving living conditions of the most vulnerable economic group!

At what point can we say enough is enough?

And here is some proof for you: Experiments in 'just give people money or housing' have proven more successful than traditional social services(1,2)!

BI is more fair, more efficient and has an added benefit of removong incentives for crime or other deviant behavior.

Besides, it is more morally just. We are all here in this world where most of the wealth was created before we were even born. Everyone is entitled to at least a small portion of it.

*Depending on which programs you include in this category, namely SS, medi- caid and care.

www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/09/22/552850245/episode-796-the-basic-income-experiment

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/04...