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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#91

Post by bryanlarsen »

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

> simply don't communicate with each other.

It takes two to communicate. That's the real emotional labour in the article: trying to communicate when the other party isn't listening.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#92

Post by rootlocus »

chadlavi wrote: post #71
saint_fiasco wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clearly you just try to shame the other person. I understand communicating such simple things is not as simple as the thing would make it seem. In fact, the point of the article was that such work is unappreciated. But just because it's not appreciated it doesn't m…

Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.

You're missing the point.

> In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted—giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor.

It's not about taking an equal share in the "emotional labor". It's about her not communicating proper intent, treating effort "ungratefully" and ultimately being disappointed for not receiving what was wanted.

She wanted:

> The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but the fact that for once I would not be in charge of the household office work. I would not have to make the calls, get multiple quotes, research and vet each service, arrange payment and schedule the appointment.

but she asked for:

> one thing: a house cleaning service.

That's the stereotypical "women don't say what they think".

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#93

Post by saint_fiasco »

chadlavi wrote: post #71
saint_fiasco wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clearly you just try to shame the other person. I understand communicating such simple things is not as simple as the thing would make it seem. In fact, the point of the article was that such work is unappreciated. But just because it's not appreciated it doesn't m…

Let me be more clear, then: saying that a female author is sexist for expecting her partner to take an equal share of the emotional labor of their shared life is beyond disgusting. I can't say I'm at all surprised to see that sort of mens-rightsism around ycombinator, though.

Just like a dirty bathroom is disgusting? The article also illustrates that people have different subjective standards for disgusting. What you find disgusting and beyond the pale is something I find insightful, subtle and interestingly wrong.

To argue against things, you need to do more than call the thing disgusting.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#94

Post by j45 »

This is an interesting article on expectations of thoughtfulness, that are valid.

In addition to emotional labour, a person who is out-giving is dedicating a fixed amount of their limited attention to keep things in mind that could go elsewhere.

Using the example of the article, if two people living together on their own were to live on their own, they would likely be more thoughtful and aware.

Co-habiting has an strange effect, you start doing things you didn't do before, and stop doing things you used to. Some of it is based around preferences and habits - and some feel if you think something should happen badly enough (if someone always leaves the lights on), maybe you should do it.

Emotional intelligence, thoughtfulness, and pro-actively thinking of needs instead of being asked to do things is something anyone values when they are relied upon in an ongoing manner.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#95

Post by alexssung »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

"Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almost always a male problem in our society,"

That's some hilarious hypocrisy.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#96

Post by greedo »

gyardley wrote: post #70
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

In my experience, you're wrong. See how that works? My wife simply doesn't care as strongly about the house as I do; nor about maintaining her car. Or family finances, grocery shopping, laundry, etc etc. For the first few years of our marriage, this was an issue. Then I learned that it was "my" issue to deal with. I had communicated as much as I could, and she didn't have the same expectations. So we compromised; she doesn't get mad when I stress about something, and I don't feel like it's her job to make me happy and cater to every feeling I have.

So that's my anecdote. Your comment is basically sexist blather.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#97

Post by nxsynonym »

EarthIsHome wrote: post #76
nxsynonym wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not communicate those expectations in a way that forms consensus - instead, opting to 'shame the man' for not having the same standards. Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of…

I think you and the parent comment have completely missed her point. > Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of working full time to keep a family afloat. She mentions this exact same defense that many men say. You also don't know their income breakdown; she has a job, she's freelanced, while also making household and familial decisions.

She doesn't have a point other than "I want more help around the house and my husband won't listen".

That's not a failing of anything other than the husband's ability to listen and her ability to be upfront with her expectations.

Income breakdown is irrelevant.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#99

Post by EarthIsHome »

JPKab wrote: post #86
mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

If my wife wrote this article, I'd be furious. I agree: This article is blatantly sexist, and the author is essentially complaining about her partner not telepathically reading her mind to "sense" her completely arbitrary standards for cleanliness in the home. She makes a big point of how she "controls the budget", and yet I have a strong suspicion that she wouldn't allow her husband to do so if he offered. Let's be…

> Socks laying on the floor doesn't affect people's health.

You're missing the point. She mentions that the clean house isn't the goal, the clean house would "simply be a bonus"

> complaining about her partner not telepathically reading her mind to "sense" her completely arbitrary standards

She also makes the point that she has told him what she wants.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#100

Post by rootlocus »

izacus wrote: post #37
tejohnso wrote: post #35

"If I were to point out random emotional labor duties I carry out—reminding him of his family’s birthdays, carrying in my head the entire school handbook and dietary guidelines for lunches, updating the calendar to include everyone’s schedules, asking his mother to babysit the kids when we go out, keeping track of what food and household items we are running low on, tidying everyone’s strewn about belongings, the une…

Are you really nitpicking use of rather accepted term?

I don't think it's nitpicking if the entire thesis of the article is based around a concept that has nothing to do with the article.
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