How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality • Hacker News Board

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#61

Post by dozzie » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:14 PM UTC

DanHulton wrote: post #34

dozzie wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you didn't understand parent's point. It's not women that are expected to put effort, it's the party that's not satisfied with current state that is expected to put effort. > Why doesn't the husband notice that his wife is always picking up after him, or that she is not recieving acknowledgement of the work she has done, work that he feels should be acknowledged when he does it? Blind spots of attention. When…

I mean - I'm always looking for ways to please my partner, and to a lesser degree, my friends, family and co-workers. Little trinkets I think she might like, a surprise dinner, doing some dishes that we've been letting slide, making tea, refilling water, whatever. And she does the same for me. And my friends, family, and co-workers tend to do the same as well. It's not silly. It's called kindness, and it's part of em…

> It's not silly. It's called kindness [...]

Yes, but it needs conscious effort, which means that you need to realize you need or want to do it. It's very difficult to do something if you never even thought you could think of doing.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#62

Post by athenot » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:14 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #45

Waterluvian wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That resonates with me. But I struggle a lot. I feel like my wife's irrationality on some subjects forces us to both spend some of our very limited time here feeling anxious and negative. It's frustrating and feels very one sided. Why can't she meet me half way and stop being so anxious on half the events? Well.. because irrationality doesn't work that way; I get that. I think that true zen for me is finding a way to…

Conflict in relationship, especially intimate relationships, is rarely about the content. It's typically that the context of the situation brings up an emotion that is taboo / off limits, one that the person has spent a life time avoiding. This avoidance is typically do to previous developmental or shock trauma. You can actually learn to use your conflicts as a psychedelic of sorts to do deep transformational work, i…

YES!

That's exactly how I view conflicts. It's the surfacing of something much deeper that is normally completely hidden, either suppressed or managed at the cost of Emotional Reserve.

When something flares up, I try to not let it go to waste and start digging. Instead, it's an opportunity. Either my wife or me (usually both) will then gain some insight about ourselves. We can then apologize for the content wich caused it and then move to the context.

We've been doing this since we were engaged and this has allowed us to grow a lot in terms of emotional stability, and build some strong reserves. Of course the flip side is that with deeper reserves, it can take a lot longer for conflicts to surface, so we now look at frustrations as the opportunities to introspect.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#63

Post by nxsynonym » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

>>There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not communicate those expectations in a way that forms consensus - instead, opting to 'shame the man' for not having the same standards.

Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of working full time to keep a family afloat.

The only part I agree with the author on is that the man should be keeping his house running and in working order. If it was not part of their division of labor agreement (aka marriage) that she would maintain the house as well as raise the kids (I'm assuming, based on what she wrote) - then he needs to step up by doing those things himself or hiring someone else to do. Which is what she asked for originally.

Everything else is her misusing a term to justify her emotions and argument and shaming her husband for not fixing how she feels.

The biggest issue, as you said, is the lack of communication.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#64

Post by Quarrelsome » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

TFortunato wrote: post #21

didgeoridoo wrote: post #7

I'm not sure I buy this. In my experience at least, it all comes down to standards — it sounds like this woman has higher standards for what constitutes a "running household", and gets frustrated when her husband doesn't share those standards. It sounds like he would be content with boxes on the floor, dirty bathrooms, etc. When she asks him to raise the house to her standard, she is asking him to adopt her perspecti…

I think you are missing the forest for the trees a bit here by focusing just on cleaning standards. As the author said, part of the emotional labor is the management of the household but also the management of relationships within the house. This isn't about forcing a man "to fully adopt her perspective." This is about the idea that women are more often expected to be the ones to suggest a compromise, or to be the on…

I still think like this stinks of "i'm a grown up and they're not" when the parent comment here is more correct, its more different standards. There are equivalent reasons various members of the household get pissed about stuff which always boil down to:

> why isn't anyone paying attention to what I do?

Q. Why does my flatmate leave his freaking tools every bloody where? A. 'cause he is the house handyman and when stuff is broken he fixes it.

Q. Why am I constantly tidying up my flatmate's mess? A. Because he's a bit careless but ultimately its flatmate B that's requiring the clear table so its in deference to them.

Q. Why does flatmate B always leave the damn hoover plugged in like a freaking tripwire around the house? A. 'cause when they've done the hoovering they can't be bothered to tidy up that part of the tidy up.

Everyone has their foibles and everyone can do better but to expect everyone else to magically assume your perspective and notice you all the freaking time is a selfish position. To be exasperated that you have to communicate your discomfort is a laziness of its own. If you fail to communicate then that's on you. Sure you shouldn't "have to" but part of accepting other people into your life is accepting their imperfections.

Anyway, pushing this into some genderised codshit is bollocks.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#65

Post by brookside » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

Many couples haven't even thought to communicate about this because the unconscious social conditional is so strong. It's an unreflected assumption that the female and male are in charge of certain duties.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#66

Post by eradicatethots » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

cmiles74 wrote: post #15

mobilefriendly wrote: post #3

This article is about weak men, men who are too lazy and slothful to shoulder responsibilities like running the household finances. Such men are more like children, doing the minimal amount possible, so lacking in initiative and organization that they are unable to even hire a cleaning service. Saying this is about "understanding" "emotional labor" is wrong because it lets weak, child-like men off the hook too easily…

I don't think this is an accurate characterization of the article. It is technically accurate that the male in this article did strike me as lazy in his reluctance to call around when hiring a cleaning service. But I think it's an unfair leap to (1) categorize him as "weak, child-like" and (2) dismiss the article as a whole based on this categorization. The main theme of the article, that managing the household requi…

Why should you be ashamed of this?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#67

Post by saint_fiasco » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

chadlavi wrote: post #54

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

dude. just... no. for fuck's sake.

You are kind of exemplifying the attitude that the parent comment complains about. You have standards that are not being met, but instead of communicating clearly you just try to shame the other person.

I understand communicating such simple things is not as simple as the thing would make it seem. In fact, the point of the article was that such work is unappreciated.

But just because it's not appreciated it doesn't mean it's not important. You should still do it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#68

Post by rhapsodic » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #31

I think this current trend where we assign responsibility for our emotions to everyone else is highly toxic and ultimately self-defeating. You can learn to control your own emotions or you can walk around waiting for everyone else to make sure you're happy and comfortable. Only one of these strategies is going to have any chance of success.

>I think this current trend where we assign responsibility for our emotions to everyone else is highly toxic and ultimately self-defeating.

I agree, because one thing I've learned in this life is that you can't "fix" other adults. This applies to spouses, employees, employers, subordinates, family members, friends, etc.

People are what they are, and your basic choice is to either accept them for what they are, or separate them from your life to whatever degree is necessary if you can't. You might be able to temporarily coerce behavioral changes in someone, but the change will only be external and temporary.

If a guy is the type who would rather spend the entire weekend on the couch watching TV rather than attending to household chores while things fall apart around him, it's unfortunate, but that's who he is. With enough nagging and head games, he might be manipulated into fixing the broken screen door, but that's what it will take each and every time.

If a subordinate at work never seems to accomplish anything because there's always some drama in their life distracting them, they're not going to one day magically transform into the model employee.

That's why you have to be careful when choosing a spouse or an employee. They're going to be what they are. In fact, if anything, their bad traits will probably amplify once they've closed the deal, and they know it will be more difficult to get rid of them.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#69

Post by mhb » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

tejohnso wrote: post #35

"If I were to point out random emotional labor duties I carry out—reminding him of his family’s birthdays, carrying in my head the entire school handbook and dietary guidelines for lunches, updating the calendar to include everyone’s schedules, asking his mother to babysit the kids when we go out, keeping track of what food and household items we are running low on, tidying everyone’s strewn about belongings, the une…

Yes. It's the wrong term. She objects to having to manage some of the household tasks. She doesn't want to manage the housecleaning or manage child care. Fine. Managing is work. No need for the different nomenclature.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#70

Post by gyardley » Thu, Sep 28, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate.

Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almost always a male problem in our society, I'm also gobsmacked that you'd call it sexist. It's about as sexist as calling gun violence or any other widely gendered thing a male problem - there's exceptions out there, but it's not worth being pedantic about.