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Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

theatlantic.com

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Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#11

Post by TeMPOraL »

jasonmaydie wrote: post #10
DrScump wrote: post #2

“Software engineers don’t understand the problem they’re trying to solve, and don’t care to.” In environments where management judges by (and is judged by) other metrics, this result is inevitable.

it's like blaming the assembly line worker for a badly designed car. Software engineers don't solve problems, they implement solutions someone else thinks will solve a problem.

Also, a software engineer, being a technical person, can probably understand the problem quite well - but that doesn't help when the management doesn't care about solving the problem, but about sorta-solving it in order to maximize profits.

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#12

Post by Jtsummers »

jasonmaydie wrote: post #10
DrScump wrote: post #2

“Software engineers don’t understand the problem they’re trying to solve, and don’t care to.” In environments where management judges by (and is judged by) other metrics, this result is inevitable.

it's like blaming the assembly line worker for a badly designed car. Software engineers don't solve problems, they implement solutions someone else thinks will solve a problem.

The analogy would be more appropriate if you said programmer and not software engineer. Anyone calling themselves a software engineer should be providing input into the design of the thing they're producing. Their role is very explicitly managing requirements and codifying them in, well, code. Either directly doing the programming or managing those who do.

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#14

Post by shalabhc »

bsaul wrote: post #9

Great article, but it leaves me with one question : what's the difference between good code generating systems (the ones mentionned, that you'd use to build critical system), and the horrors that we saw back in the time with wysiwig HTML editors such as dreamweaver ( to the point where nobody today would dare to write an html website with something other than a text editor) ? The second problem seems a lot easier to…

> good code generating systems

To discuss a different perspective - why have text as an intermediate representation at all?

To elaborate - if you look at something like Smalltalk, you modify the 'running program' directly.

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#15

Post by hwayne »

combatentropy wrote: post #6

If TLA+ really does let you prove your program is bugless, then maybe it is something to look into for cars, airplanes, medicine, etc. For the rest of us, who still wrestle with complexity but probably would't accidentally kill someone, here are some simpler aids: 1. Don't put a computer there. My microwave doesn't need to be digital. It needs two dials, time and power. My mother's washing machine can be controlled b…

> maybe it is something to look into for cars, airplanes, medicine, etc. For the rest of us, who still wrestle with complexity but probably would't accidentally kill someone, here are some simpler aids:

TLA+ isn't perfect, but it's actually not that hard to use! I'm a webdev and it comes in handy all the time.

> Data-driven programming. I'll just quote some really smart people:

You might want to check out Alloy. It's a formal spec language that specializes in verifying data structures.

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#17

Post by hwayne »

shalabhc wrote: post #14
bsaul wrote: post #9

Great article, but it leaves me with one question : what's the difference between good code generating systems (the ones mentionned, that you'd use to build critical system), and the horrors that we saw back in the time with wysiwig HTML editors such as dreamweaver ( to the point where nobody today would dare to write an html website with something other than a text editor) ? The second problem seems a lot easier to…

> good code generating systems To discuss a different perspective - why have text as an intermediate representation at all? To elaborate - if you look at something like Smalltalk, you modify the 'running program' directly.

LabVIEW is the future

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#18

Post by simlevesque »

hwayne wrote: post #16

> He began collaborating with Gerard Berry, a computer scientist at INRIA, the French computing-research center, on a tool called Esterel INRIA is also maintains Coq, TLAPS, and much of TLA+. INRIA is a scary scary place.

> INRIA is a scary scary place.

Why ?

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#19

Post by tytytytytytytyt »

hwayne wrote: post #17
shalabhc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> good code generating systems To discuss a different perspective - why have text as an intermediate representation at all? To elaborate - if you look at something like Smalltalk, you modify the 'running program' directly.

LabVIEW is the future

Any decade now...

Re: Programmers who want to change how we code before catastrophe strikes

#20

Post by vorotato »

Jtsummers wrote: post #12
jasonmaydie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's like blaming the assembly line worker for a badly designed car. Software engineers don't solve problems, they implement solutions someone else thinks will solve a problem.

The analogy would be more appropriate if you said programmer and not software engineer. Anyone calling themselves a software engineer should be providing input into the design of the thing they're producing. Their role is very explicitly managing requirements and codifying them in, well, code. Either directly doing the programming or managing those who do.

Except software engineers are often placed in subordinate roles because "WE WANT ONLY THE BEST". If you aren't given the authority to change the design, caring about it is an unnecessary source of anxiety and stress.
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