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Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

nytimes.com

161–170 of 225 posts

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#161
post #85

Just today I had someone casually mention that he thought women should not be allowed to vote. This is the Netherlands, the person is Dutch, not muslim or some other culture that I might not be used to, we're master's students... nothing out of the ordinary. And the third person in the conversation apparently agreed, calling it bad to prohibit it in principle but "seeing the effects of allowing women to vote" he agre…

A lot of philisophical points like this took a long time to develop (universal suffrage). Even if it seems "obvious" today, most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration.

Why don't you use the opportunity to address the points intellectually rather than silently thinking they are wrong?

First of all, the statements are very different. One of your acquaintences advocated prohibition, while the other merely opined that the overall results were negative without supporting prohibition.

What are the dangers in each position? How do the arguments apply to other questions, like voting age? How do the arguments apply to other groups, like citizens/noncitizens or felons/nonfelons?

I'm not an expert here, but I know there are some tough questions here that you might find difficult to answer. And then you might better understand how someone might hold a misguided position.

Really, most peoples' thinking is muddled on these issues because they haven't studied them. The only thing that keeps most people from saying such things is politocal correctness.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#162
post #85

Just today I had someone casually mention that he thought women should not be allowed to vote. This is the Netherlands, the person is Dutch, not muslim or some other culture that I might not be used to, we're master's students... nothing out of the ordinary. And the third person in the conversation apparently agreed, calling it bad to prohibit it in principle but "seeing the effects of allowing women to vote" he agre…

> Am I weird for rejecting the notion out of hand?

Every idea needs to be inspected, no matter how bad it is. If you can't understand someone's POV then you can't defend against it.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#164
post #85

Just today I had someone casually mention that he thought women should not be allowed to vote. This is the Netherlands, the person is Dutch, not muslim or some other culture that I might not be used to, we're master's students... nothing out of the ordinary. And the third person in the conversation apparently agreed, calling it bad to prohibit it in principle but "seeing the effects of allowing women to vote" he agre…

A lot of philisophical points like this took a long time to develop (universal suffrage). Even if it seems "obvious" today, most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration. Why don't you use the opportunity to address the points intellectually rather than silently thinking they are wrong? First of all, the statements are very different. One of your acquaintences advocated…

>"most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration"

Careful here. This can be said about the other side as well to parrot news stations, media outlets and propaganda. This is surely no way to address such a situation - it is one-sided and judgmental. You need to open-minded if you want to hold such a difficult conversation.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#165
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, if you are a libertarian, many people claim the libertarian moniker but then say very illiberal things; check any comment section of Reason when there is a black person killed by a cop. It is getting very hard for people outside your group to identify what libertarian means anymore because of that. A similar thing is happening on the left I think, but since it is my group, I might not be as mindful of it.…

Libertarian != liberal Also, it is unfortunate that people continue to politicize police killings and attribute them to race. Such treatment is ignorant of stastics. I think these glaring inconsistencies are just starting to tear the left apart. The right have their own problems, but they dont tend to be so obscenely inconsistent as to divide the base along racial and gender lines.

[deleted]

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#167
post #85

Just today I had someone casually mention that he thought women should not be allowed to vote. This is the Netherlands, the person is Dutch, not muslim or some other culture that I might not be used to, we're master's students... nothing out of the ordinary. And the third person in the conversation apparently agreed, calling it bad to prohibit it in principle but "seeing the effects of allowing women to vote" he agre…

> What if the women of this planet decide that male votes are shit, what then? Are we just going to have to fight it out?

Democracy is a technology for simulating civil wars without going through the formality of fighting them. So it's desirable that the side that wins the election be the side that would have won the civil war. If this is chronically untrue, then the side that would have won the civil war has little incentive to accept the election as legitimate.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A creepily common idea among certain libertarians. "Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron." – the inimitable Peter Thiel

Anecdata, but i have never heard a self-described libertarian suggest that women should have their voting rights rescinded. At the risk of proclaiming No True Scottsman, the entire premise is so antithetical to a libertarian philosophy that i struggle to grasp how someone could embody such competing ideals. That being said, giving women the [due] right to vote effectively doubled the eligible voting pool in america.…

I have. In fact, I heard it about ten times in the 30 seconds I was googling this.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/womens-suffrage/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peter-thiel-women-democr...

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of philisophical points like this took a long time to develop (universal suffrage). Even if it seems "obvious" today, most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration. Why don't you use the opportunity to address the points intellectually rather than silently thinking they are wrong? First of all, the statements are very different. One of your acquaintences advocated…

>"most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration" Careful here. This can be said about the other side as well to parrot news stations, media outlets and propaganda. This is surely no way to address such a situation - it is one-sided and judgmental. You need to open-minded if you want to hold such a difficult conversation.

I include myself in the group "most people". I believe in a lot of modern liberal (in the freedom sense) ideas, but I don't think I could win a debate about them.

Basically I just believe the modern liberal ideas because they sound right to me and I haven't heard any serious rebuttal. "Parroting" might be a bit harsh, but only a bit.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#170
post #133

Posting as anon because I don't want to be condemned, honestly, you can't marginalize half of your population and be successful and you don't need a degree in econ to understand that. It's simple math.

But a degree in history would show you that yes, indeed you can marginalize half your population and be quite successful for a very long time.

When money bubbles out of the ground or grows on trees, yes, yes you can.
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