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In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

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Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#141

Post by orcdork »

richardknop wrote: post #135

There is an interesting book called Lords of Poverty from Graham Hancock. It's from 80s when he used to work as a correspondent for the Economist in Africa. He claims that foreign aid and charities that raise tons of money from Western people for different projects in Africa are a total waste of money. The amount of corruption and waste is so huge that majority of the money people from US or EU donate ends up going d…

I'm not sure that true. As in - not true at all, unless you really want to believe it to be true.

No, 70% of foreign aid is not 'stolen off the top' http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2017/jan/17...

How Much Aid is Really Lost to Corruption? https://www.cgdev.org/blog/how-much-aid-really-lost-corrupti...

Where does aid money really go -- and what is it spent on? http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/09/opinion/where-does-aid-mon...

While there are large issues on the way foreign aid is distributed, including corruption and more recently local NGOs being sidelined, it's nowhere near close to your "perhaps $0.1" estimate of reaching locals. The idea that almost all the assistance is wasted is not only untrue, but harmful.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#142

Post by leonroy »

richardknop wrote: post #135

There is an interesting book called Lords of Poverty from Graham Hancock. It's from 80s when he used to work as a correspondent for the Economist in Africa. He claims that foreign aid and charities that raise tons of money from Western people for different projects in Africa are a total waste of money. The amount of corruption and waste is so huge that majority of the money people from US or EU donate ends up going d…

> This is why I don't donate to charities. I believe for every dollar I would donate perhaps $0.1 would actually reach the destination and be spent on helping people. I'd rather donate directly to people in need after I meet them and can see that they are legit and there aren't several layers of middlemen leaching off the donated money.

Sorry to pick on one point but isn't that throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Let's Encrypt, Liberty, Khan Academy, Wikipedia, Seed Bank are a few of the charities I regularly donate to. I can understand not volunteering for humanitarian relief which is supposed to end up halfway across the world in some poorly governed LEDC but there are a lot of worthy causes which are well run.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#143

Post by richardknop »

scandox wrote: post #139
richardknop wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah he is otherwise famous for his "alternative" archeology with books like Fingerprints of the Gods etc. Which by the way is a great book and although there is a lot of outlandish claims I wouldn't say it's totally crazy. Nothing wrong with speculating and exploring non mainstream ideas. But I still think Lords of Poverty is a legitimate book and he had a lot of on the ground experience in Africa to observe how for…

My instincts about International Charity / NGOs are the same as yours. However I'm not willing to easily accept that instinct since it is potentially self-serving. I think that we have to consider if a book written in 1989 can still be considered useful information and we also have to consider the writer's commitment to intellectual and factual rigour.

Fair enough. But since your instincts are same would you not consider donating money directly to selected people in need you meet in real life or while traveling? Or going to do charity directly yourself to actually make a real change?

I have friends who quit their jobs and went to third world countries and worked for charities on the ground for 6 months or so. This seems way better than giving money to some organization which claims it will spend it to help those people.

Not sure if Occam's razor applies here but given how much money is being funneled to charities and foreign aid and how little has been actually achieved it seems likely to me that the money is being wasted, probably ending up in hands of corrupt local officials and strongmen most likely.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#144

Post by simonh »

richardknop wrote: post #138
scandox wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He currently gets quite a roasting on Wikipedia for his "unscientific theories". It does appear his main interest after that book is The Orion Correlation Theory and let's say "exciting" Archaeology.

Yeah he is otherwise famous for his "alternative" archeology with books like Fingerprints of the Gods etc. Which by the way is a great book and although there is a lot of outlandish claims I wouldn't say it's totally crazy. Nothing wrong with speculating and exploring non mainstream ideas. But I still think Lords of Poverty is a legitimate book and he had a lot of on the ground experience in Africa to observe how for…

I loved reading Fingerprints of the Gods, but it’s utter tosh. I’ve also seen him on TV shows and I wouldn’t trust a single thing in any book the guy has ever written. He shows complete and utter disregard for plain proof that any of his theories must be wrong. Any and all counter evidence is merely ‘one data point’ while even the flimsiest, most contrived point in his favour is strong or convincing evidence. He’s very entertaining and obviously a clever guy, but utterly unreliable.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#145

Post by toyg »

l0b0 wrote: post #132
simonw wrote: post #12

Worth re-iterating: The American Red Cross and the International Committee of the Red Cross are independent organizations, with very different reputations.

Thanks, that clears things up massively. I've never heard anything negative about the Red Cross (International Committee or otherwise) in Europe, and was a bit shocked to see their (collective) name pulled into the dirt.

> I've never heard anything negative about the Red Cross (International Committee or otherwise) in Europe

Well... my dad volunteered in various relief operations during the Balkan conflicts (Bosnia first and Kosovo later, raising and delivering aid as well as coordinating localised rebuild efforts). As a result, his opinion of Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières went way down. According to him, RC activities are routinely used for on-the-ground intelligence gathering and operations by most states involved, a lot of RC people are basically civil servants or straight out spies, and the org often discriminates on religious grounds in many ways (this was particularly relevant in Bosnia, where aid operations were effectively compartmentalised by faith); and MSF is only a career vehicle for a lot of people. Also according to him, a lot of volunteers in any org are simply out for easy sex, abusing their position of privilege with the local population - and often ignoring details like age of consent.

We had a big row once, where I basically proposed that supranational orgs like those will inevitably become more and more key as disasters and wars get bigger and longer, and that scale helps dealing with these scenarios. He was extremely skeptical. This said, he still raises money for a smaller NGO every year.

Obviously this is anecdote, but I bring it just to point out that critical outlooks on RC and other big "relief institutions" do exist, although they rarely coalesce in anything particularly scandalous or front-page worthy.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#146

Post by richardknop »

simonh wrote: post #144
richardknop wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah he is otherwise famous for his "alternative" archeology with books like Fingerprints of the Gods etc. Which by the way is a great book and although there is a lot of outlandish claims I wouldn't say it's totally crazy. Nothing wrong with speculating and exploring non mainstream ideas. But I still think Lords of Poverty is a legitimate book and he had a lot of on the ground experience in Africa to observe how for…

I loved reading Fingerprints of the Gods, but it’s utter tosh. I’ve also seen him on TV shows and I wouldn’t trust a single thing in any book the guy has ever written. He shows complete and utter disregard for plain proof that any of his theories must be wrong. Any and all counter evidence is merely ‘one data point’ while even the flimsiest, most contrived point in his favour is strong or convincing evidence. He’s ve…

Well, there is a sequel called Magicians of the Gods. I also wouldn't trust him too much but I'm willing to entertain interesting theories, nothing wrong with that.

I especially liked his work on Sphinx erosion patterns in Egypt together with Dr Robert M Schoch from Boston University (and I am not saying we should overthrow the ancient Egyptian history based one factor like erosion pattern but it is intriguing).

Another interesting thing is the newly discovered 11,500 years old Gobekli Tepe, which is really interesting. I enjoy reading stuff like this in my leisure time or during long flights. Doesn't mean I trust it completely of course ;)

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#147

Post by toyg »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #110
fencepost wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been years since I was an American Red Cross (local) disaster services volunteer, but at the time I believe the philosophy was also providing funds rather than materials because it helped local economies recover.

Also, if many people donate materials, it quickly turns into a logistic clusterfuck, where the charity suddenly has to worry about (and spend money on) shipping tons of stuff across the world, which is significantly more expensive than just buying it locally.

Expensive and wasteful, as people all donate the same tin of beans and no spoon to eat it with, so to speak. But there is also a point to this sort of donation - gifting in kind usually ensures it won't be pocketed along the way. It might get wasted (food expires, boxes break etc), but rarely exploited for profit - or so the common wisdom goes.

Unfortunately, something like that can still be used for evil in many ways. Say your container full of cans gets delivered to Port Disaster and stored in customs; the local docks boss (be it a warlord or local leader) gets wind of it and refuses to release it unless his palms are greased. The org will be forced to pay, otherwise all effort will be for nought, food will rot etc. Charitable gifts will then help fostering the blackmail and corruption economies that wars and disasters inevitably create, rather than relieving the honest one. But then again, so would random "cash rain".

There is no magic bullet, all solutions have their downside. Operating in crisis scenarios is a constant moral maze.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#148

Post by Nursie »

simonw wrote: post #12

Worth re-iterating: The American Red Cross and the International Committee of the Red Cross are independent organizations, with very different reputations.

Definitely.

The Red Cross I know of here in the UK and throughout the world (as far as I knew) are a fantastic, hard-working organisation that provide all sorts of disaster relief and humanitarian aid in warzones and ... well they do great stuff.

That the American Red Cross might be sullying the name of charity through its actions, let alone the name "Red Cross" is a terrible shame.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#149

Post by Retric »

leonroy wrote: post #142
richardknop wrote: post #135

There is an interesting book called Lords of Poverty from Graham Hancock. It's from 80s when he used to work as a correspondent for the Economist in Africa. He claims that foreign aid and charities that raise tons of money from Western people for different projects in Africa are a total waste of money. The amount of corruption and waste is so huge that majority of the money people from US or EU donate ends up going d…

> This is why I don't donate to charities. I believe for every dollar I would donate perhaps $0.1 would actually reach the destination and be spent on helping people. I'd rather donate directly to people in need after I meet them and can see that they are legit and there aren't several layers of middlemen leaching off the donated money. Sorry to pick on one point but isn't that throwing the baby out with the bath wat…

Wikipedia is a horrible charity if you look at how they spend their money. They get a huge income stream relative to what they use for the website.

Re: In Search Of The Red Cross' $500M In Haiti Relief (2015)

#150

Post by JshWright »

craftyguy wrote: post #82
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this possible? I simply asked to never be called again, and was called perhaps once more where I reiterated this. Then I was simply never called again.

I don't know how it's possible for them to disregard my pleas to remove me from their lists. I even told them I have traveled to SE Asia and been exposed to locations with malaria (true story), but ultimately had to resort to blocking their dozens of local and 800 numbers on my phone.

Yep, I don't know if they're straight up spoofing caller IDs (I can't imagine they could actually get away with that), or if they actually own numbers in every exchange so they can make local calls, but it's incredibly annoying...
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