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A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

economist.com

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Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#61

Post by skissane »

Retric wrote: post #20
skissane wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU in many ways acts like one big economy due to its customs union, freedom of movement of workers, capital, goods and services, extensive harmonised regulations, partially harmonised taxation, wealth transfers between members, a common currency to a substantial part of it, etc. It is a lot more tightly integrated than some mere 28 member free trade area would be, although still not as tightly integrated as say t…

States can't leave the USA countries can leave the EU, which is a massive difference. NAFTA and EU are not countries they are an agreement between countries.

States can leave the US with the consent of Congress. Congress has never given its consent, and it is hard to predict how it would behave if such a request was seriously made today. Congress did reject the demand of the Confederate states to secede, but there was a strong moral argument against allowing their secession–their primary reason for secession were to continue to evil practice of slavery. If a state wanted to secede today, I doubt there would be such a strong argument against allowing them to do so.

EU member states have only been able to unilaterally leave the EU since the Treaty of Lisbon came into force in December 2009. Prior to that, there was no legal provision for a member state to leave without a treaty amendment. So the situations between the EU and the US are not as dissimilar as you suggest.

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#62

Post by seanmcdirmid »

agumonkey wrote: post #57
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you just describing world history, where tribes/peoples have replaced other ones many many times over?

tbh, and not trying to dismiss USA in anyway. I find their situation in time and space pretty exceptional. They had no aggressive neighbors and half a continent. At a time where new knowledge was popping out, having such a playground was very timely.

The North American tribes had plenty of warfare and territory turn overs long before the Europeans arrived. The isolation of the americas did prevent diffusion of technology, but we also saw the same thing happen in Africa and even Asia to similar extents. It wasn't very unique.

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#63

Post by alex_anglin »

gerdesj wrote: post #59
zizek23 wrote: post #34

Let's call it as it is, an entire continent was usurped, a gigantic fertile landmass rich in resources was stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe. The consequence is predictable. Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder without a hint of self consciousness or remorse, and cements a barbaric ideology that fuels more indiscriminate global plunder…

(No idea what the article says - I've apparently reached my article limit) How on earth can you describe a landmass as stolen or a continent as usurped?

Killing the natives?

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#64

Post by gerdesj »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #41
adwhit wrote: post #19

Given that 400+ years of growth has got us into a position where the likelihood is that the planet will be unable to sustain human life within a few hundred years, I'd be curious to find out what future historians will make of the West's supposedly proud story of progress. In the end, would we all have been better sticking with the Native American way of life? Benjamin Franklin: “When white persons of either sex have…

Humans live in Siberia and the Sahara, it'll be pretty much impossible to kill us off completely - we're definitely the hardiest large mammal. It's a good question whether civilisation will be here in 400 years, but humanity will be.

"hardiest large mammal" - hopefully but you might want to be related to tardigrades for real hardiness.

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#65

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pizza wrote: post #50
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you just describing world history, where tribes/peoples have replaced other ones many many times over?

Yes, but as an example (whose effect is only stark because of our present world history), the Nuremberg trials were also a replacement of world history. Many people on trial said "I was just following orders"; mere world history. Just because world history is symbolic, does not mean millions of people's duties do not depend upon which symbols are present.

We hit Hitler comparisons fast on this thread, eh?

It is fine to condemn it if you want, we definitely don't want to repeat it, but if you think any culture really has the moral high ground on this, you should look deeper.

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#67

Post by [deleted] »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #52
zizek23 wrote: post #34

Let's call it as it is, an entire continent was usurped, a gigantic fertile landmass rich in resources was stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe. The consequence is predictable. Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder without a hint of self consciousness or remorse, and cements a barbaric ideology that fuels more indiscriminate global plunder…

The sweet smell of presentism. You can perhaps fault the US for the interlude between British outlawing of slavery and the civil war/abolition, which covers a few decades. But you can't seriously claim that slavery wasn't the global norm in the 17th and 18th centuries. It certainly wasn't "unlimited." Onto the next bit, "stolen...IP from Europe" is a modern characterization of what was in fact a healthy exchange of r…

[deleted]

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#68

Post by michalskop »

kryptiskt wrote: post #49
zizek23 wrote: post #34

Let's call it as it is, an entire continent was usurped, a gigantic fertile landmass rich in resources was stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe. The consequence is predictable. Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder without a hint of self consciousness or remorse, and cements a barbaric ideology that fuels more indiscriminate global plunder…

So why didn't it happen in South America?

One possible explanation is in the popular book Las Venas abiertas de América Latina (Open Veins of Latin America) by Eduardo Galeano.

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#69

Post by gerdesj »

alex_anglin wrote: post #63
gerdesj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(No idea what the article says - I've apparently reached my article limit) How on earth can you describe a landmass as stolen or a continent as usurped?

Killing the natives?

Who are the "natives"?

Do you stop at "first to call the area by its modern name" or do you go back through say first hominids?

Perhaps we should go back further, say "recognisable single cell organism"

Re: A 400-year story of progress – How America became the world’s biggest economy

#70

Post by ratacat »

gerdesj wrote: post #59
zizek23 wrote: post #34

Let's call it as it is, an entire continent was usurped, a gigantic fertile landmass rich in resources was stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe. The consequence is predictable. Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder without a hint of self consciousness or remorse, and cements a barbaric ideology that fuels more indiscriminate global plunder…

(No idea what the article says - I've apparently reached my article limit) How on earth can you describe a landmass as stolen or a continent as usurped?

It's kind of like, I come over to your house for dinner... Murder your family members, and sell you to a slaver, then your house is mine.

Pretty straight forward.

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