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Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

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Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#91

Post by deepnotderp »

BenoitP wrote: post #79
grondilu wrote: post #24

Today on HN I've learnt about KaTeX, a math typesetting system for the web[1]. As I looked into it, I was intrigued by the names of the two authors, which suggested they are females. That looked odd to me, as I thought typically this kind of project is made by men. The last time I had this kind of surprise was with Audrey Tang, the developer of Pugs, an early Perl 6 implementation. Turned out she was not born female.…

Sophie Wilson[1], designer of the ARM instruction set -among other things- comes to mind too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Wilson

I'm not a fan of this argument, but I think his point is that there are fewer overall. For example, individuals with CAH exhibit far greater affinity for male-type toys (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/).

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#92

Post by sgustard »

PrimalDual wrote: post #21

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

The argument for diversity is that by not actively working for diversity, we will reflexively hire people like ourselves, which for the most part are white males. In addition, we are talking about groups which have been historically discriminated against. Affirmative action is about fairness (of opportunity), more so than goodness (for the company).

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#93

Post by reuleaux »

thevardanian wrote: post #78
reuleaux wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understood your argument, it's just a bad argument. You presented no evidence to support your claim so I'm not sure what you want me to refute. Yes, perhaps the current employment representation perfectly reflects what jobs women want. And perhaps men just really like killing themselves. Resolving gender issues sure is easy when we just assume hypotheticals are true. I think you are missing the point of the argumen…

"To me it would be wildly inconceivable for predisposition to certain jobs to be an inherent biological trait rather than something shaped by society." Doesn't really matter what would inconceivable to you. What matters if that's the reality of the situation. Watch the documentary it addresses it.

It really doesn't. I'm not arguing there aren't inherent differences in the sexes, I'm asking you why you think the current representation of gender in the workforce is correct. As far as I'm aware there's no evidence to suggest the current state of representation is the most natural. I skimmed through the video you linked and saw no convincing evidence, but if there's something I missed please link me to it.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#94

Post by meowface »

sgustard wrote: post #92
PrimalDual wrote: post #21

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

The argument for diversity is that by not actively working for diversity, we will reflexively hire people like ourselves, which for the most part are white males. In addition, we are talking about groups which have been historically discriminated against. Affirmative action is about fairness (of opportunity), more so than goodness (for the company).

I think that's a solid argument, but shouldn't the goal be to hire based on merit, not "hire people like ourselves" or "try to avoid hiring people like ourselves by erring towards hiring people not like ourselves"? I think blinding as much as possible in the interview process is fairer and, in the long run, simpler for everyone involved.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#95

Post by UnpossibleJim »

tnzn wrote: post #76
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might help if it were not frowned upon to admit that women and men are different, and that isn't a bad thing. Male nurses are still a rarity, and that's ok (though, all nurses, regardless of sex, should get paid more). Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different. Is a frog better than a toad? Well, what situation are you asking about? Are women better than men? Well, what situation are we talking about?…

It would help to stop with the strawmen. Feminists don't say men and women are not different at all, they say that the gender roles are based on cultural factors more than biological ones.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/2014...

https://www.simplypsychology.org/gender-biology.html

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#97

Post by talindras »

greglindahl wrote: post #80
thevardanian wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That clearly is the assumption of the argument. That women don't have enough opportunities and thus are underrepresented in the work force. Whether that opportunity refers to discrimination, encouragement, etc. is irrelevant to what I'm saying. What if women are underrepresented because they simply don't want the jobs?

In a society where women are not treated equally, you're dodging the real issue to argue about something that's not relevant.

Except we do not live in a society where women are not treated equally.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#98

Post by rcpt »

reuleaux wrote: post #71
thevardanian wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't even the point of my whole argument. All I'm saying is that perhaps women don't want those jobs in the first place. Then what will you do? I mean that is the whole assumption of this argument right? That women want these jobs, but are unable to participate in them because of discrimination. What if that assumption is wrong? You can push for diversity all you want, but what if that's just not how people be…

I understood your argument, it's just a bad argument. You presented no evidence to support your claim so I'm not sure what you want me to refute. Yes, perhaps the current employment representation perfectly reflects what jobs women want. And perhaps men just really like killing themselves. Resolving gender issues sure is easy when we just assume hypotheticals are true. I think you are missing the point of the argumen…

> perhaps men just really like killing themselves

Please don't talk like this.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#99

Post by threatofrain »

meowface wrote: post #94
sgustard wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument for diversity is that by not actively working for diversity, we will reflexively hire people like ourselves, which for the most part are white males. In addition, we are talking about groups which have been historically discriminated against. Affirmative action is about fairness (of opportunity), more so than goodness (for the company).

I think that's a solid argument, but shouldn't the goal be to hire based on merit, not "hire people like ourselves" or "try to avoid hiring people like ourselves by erring towards hiring people not like ourselves"? I think blinding as much as possible in the interview process is fairer and, in the long run, simpler for everyone involved.

Blinding your hiring process may actually make things more lopsided sometimes; i.e., technical screenings without seeing identity. You may find even less minorities hired.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#100

Post by ck425 »

PrimalDual wrote: post #21

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

You might not expect the gender and ethnic background proportions to 100% reflect society (I won't get into that) but even if that's the case Software Engineering is far more skewed than most comparable industries (science academia, other engineering fields etc) suggesting that we've not hit natural diversity levels yet.
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