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Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

nytimes.com

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Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#81

Post by thevardanian »

greglindahl wrote: post #80
thevardanian wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That clearly is the assumption of the argument. That women don't have enough opportunities and thus are underrepresented in the work force. Whether that opportunity refers to discrimination, encouragement, etc. is irrelevant to what I'm saying. What if women are underrepresented because they simply don't want the jobs?

In a society where women are not treated equally, you're dodging the real issue to argue about something that's not relevant.

.... what women want isn't relevant?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#82

Post by egwynn »

This sounds like a lot of smoke and no fire to me. Are men having trouble finding jobs in tech because of their gender? Is Damore even having trouble finding a job in tech despite his claims that he’s the target of a witch hunt? Was there some kind of law passed that forces tech companies to hire more women?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#83

Post by rektide »

thevardanian wrote: post #20
cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish…

The culture surrounding the job has enormous impact on who signs up. It's not inherent that tech jobs have to be like they are, but finding a better path could take a long long time. It's IMO scum and villainy willing to chalk it up to gender imbalance while not considering that it might take large scale sociological change, perhaps over decades of time, to gradually make our system better. Trying to be gender fair is only a small part of building healthy, good workspaces- there's many other systematic evils that need rooting out, and I'm not sure why that's not apparent & considered before making these kinds of gross discarding remarks.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#84

Post by greglindahl »

thevardanian wrote: post #81
greglindahl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a society where women are not treated equally, you're dodging the real issue to argue about something that's not relevant.

.... what women want isn't relevant?

Vigorously arguing about "what women want" in the face of today's known discrimination against women in tech is not relevant.

Not to mention misrepresenting what "the argument" is about, but I guess you've already moved on from that.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#85

Post by KirinDave »

deepnotderp wrote: post #67
KirinDave wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are subsidized, yes.

So is tubal ligation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/

So what?

Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion.

Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women get substandard or no treatment in the efforts to restrict access to birth control.

But hey, the far less reliable tubal ligation is covered and that makes it fine, because I mentioned casually that men's reproductive care is almost never on the table.

Folks were terribly activist about body autonomy when it was medical marijuana on the table. But you mention "oh also this is birth control" and suddenly questions about why governments should be subsidizing medical care for poor people crop up like this isn't a well studied and decades old public health issue. Children of parents with access to pre-natal care cost less to society and offer more than those without, and this is reflected in the health outcomes of planned vs unplanned children.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#86

Post by jseliger »

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

It can't just be a boys club

I'm don't think that anyone prominent or in the mainstream is arguing that it should be.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#87

Post by thevardanian »

rektide wrote: post #83
thevardanian wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish…

The culture surrounding the job has enormous impact on who signs up. It's not inherent that tech jobs have to be like they are, but finding a better path could take a long long time. It's IMO scum and villainy willing to chalk it up to gender imbalance while not considering that it might take large scale sociological change, perhaps over decades of time, to gradually make our system better. Trying to be gender fair i…

Again Norwegian countries have attempted to do this far more than the USA. Have they succeeded?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#88

Post by KirinDave »

deepnotderp wrote: post #48
KirinDave wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...

Your link only shows three states, and all of them cut off state/federal funding to institutions providing abortions. This seems like it would be in line with the Hyde amendment. Why is this now somehow an infringement of rights?

The question was: what rights do women lack? Right to access basic health care (or even a marketplace with said care in many states) was my answer.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#89

Post by deepnotderp »

KirinDave wrote: post #85
deepnotderp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is tubal ligation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490665/

So what? Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion. Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women g…

First of all, men's access to vasectomy procedures was a key tenet of your argument as to why it's unfair to women. Second, all of your arguments center on reproductive healthcare, such as birth control, not being government subsidized, but you ignore that men have no government subsidized reproductive health care either. This isn't to say that it should be that way, I tend to think not, but I fail to see how that's a basic right that women lack.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#90

Post by KirinDave »

deepnotderp wrote: post #89
KirinDave wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion. Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women g…

First of all, men's access to vasectomy procedures was a key tenet of your argument as to why it's unfair to women. Second, all of your arguments center on reproductive healthcare, such as birth control, not being government subsidized, but you ignore that men have no government subsidized reproductive health care either. This isn't to say that it should be that way, I tend to think not, but I fail to see how that's…

> First of all, men's access to vasectomy procedures was a key tenet of your argument as to why it's unfair to women.

No, it was not. I mentioned it in passing. There is no analogue in male health care.

> but you ignore that men have no government subsidized reproductive health care either.

This isn't even about subsidization. The defunding of Planned Parenthood is just insult to he injury of making affordable women's clinics essentially impossible to operate in many places in the US.

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