Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

papers.ssrn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 132 posts

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#101

Post by Dove »

Steko wrote: post #38

Kevin Drum notes it's a weak result but if true, wonders if the authors draw the right conclusions: suppose it’s true. Here’s what the authors say: Our results indicate that college administrators face an important trade-off when they consider policies designed to limit fraternity life on campus: while such policies may significantly raise academic performance, these gains may come at a significant cost in terms of e…

You want to watch out for when trains of thought become unscientific.

This part is science: "After carefully controlling for all variables, we can conclude that the choice to join a fraternity has these quantifiable downstream impacts, on average."

This part is just-so stories: "That happens because . . . "

I know it's aggravating, but to insist on a high degree of caution in demonstrating a truth and then to insist on none when it comes to interpreting it lends reckless thinking an undeserved veneer of respectability.

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#102

Post by archagon »

baron816 wrote: post #29

Dear Silicon Valley, Please start something (company or otherwise) that will make it easy for adults (young and old) to become part of a large, real world social network. One which will help them form good career connections, as well as platonic and romantic relationships. Fraternities create their own unique culture (traditions, handshakes, songs, idioms, etc) to tie people together, so keep that in mind. Please lea…

I think projects like Latitude[1] and Kalu Yala[2], while easy to poke fun of as examples of Silicon Valley out-of-touchness, also reveal the deep longing many of us have for genuine, spontaneous community interaction. I lived in a student co-op in college and it was the most significant social event of my life; how I wish there were more avenues in the “real” world to live, laugh, and love in a community of equals under the same roof!

(One major issue from the SV side, I think, is that the business models don’t align with the goals. A startup aiming to tackle this problem would probably need to be organized as a cooperative. See “Jungletown” for an example of what happens when community thinking butts up against top-down, profit-driven leadership.)

[1]: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xygykj/my-year-in... [2]: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/show/jungletown

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#103

Post by [deleted] »

peteretep wrote: post #75
uptownfunk wrote: post #33

Wish I had joined a frat in Uni.. What no one told me in Uni is that: + You're either tech or not tech, and not tech is not sexy in the valley + You need experience, no one cares about all the extra coursework you do, experience is king + Don't wear a suit to an interview in the valley, ever. + Your connections are invaluable, form lasting relationships, it's one of those weird things where not studying pays off, a l…

I'm a recruiter who doesn't work with any companies in the Valley, and I'm curious about this: > Don't wear a suit to an interview > in the valley, ever. Really? Almost everywhere else in the world, not wearing a suit to an interview is a weak negative signal, as it shows you're unlikely to be able to put up with even small amounts of the inherent corporate bullshit that occurs in companies. Even if you'll never wear…

[deleted]

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#104

Post by lallysingh »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #77
cowpig wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure most people develop social skills in university regardless of whether they join a fraternity. Having a group of adult friends, freedom, roommates, etc, all prepare you for the real world. Fraternities also prepare you for the ugly parts of the real world, though. The real world is full of elite clubs without meritocratic entrance criteria, and learning how to join one and function within one is certai…

> I'm pretty sure most people develop social skills in university regardless of whether they join a fraternity Being in a frat isn’t the only way to develop these skills. But lots of people coast through college without any non-academic social extracurricular exposure.

And lots of people don't. For the student, it sounds like a useful venue to learn social skills.

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#105

Post by JamesBarney »

santaclaus wrote: post #83
fny wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can guarantee no one really cares about your GPA, especially after your first job. If it's your only proof of competency/intelligence that's been validated by a third-party, they'll care, but if you have other outside evidence and interview well, no one will ever even think to ask, even in elite settings. I, for one, have never put my GPA on my resume.

> I can guarantee no one really cares about your GPA When a buddy of mine was interviewing at hedge funds, a few of them didn't just want his undergrad GPA, but also his high school SAT scores. He actually got shit from one of the interviewers because his French SAT scores were shady... the dude had a few years of finance experience and a PhD in theoretical physics. YMMV.

To be fair your high school SAT scores are generally more predictive of job performance than your GPA.

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#106

Post by danjoc »

bkohlmann wrote: post #56
danjoc wrote: post #26

All the frat guys I ever knew had well off parents. They were going to make more than everyone else due to that alone. Of course, being surrounded by privilege, parties, and sorority girls eager to score a rich boy hurt their grades. That doesn't really matter though. They graduated. Some even took an extra year or two to do that. It didn't matter. They did fine. Being a prince has advantages.

Joining a fraternity was one of the most meaningful and impactful experiences of my life. I come from humble means - my parents couldnt and didnt pay for any of the (expensive) school I ended up attending. I ended up joining one of only two "wet" fraternities on campus (meaning we were allowed to have booze in our house), and the one considered the most social. I was (am) an introvert and didn't drink in high school…

>Not once did wealth, influence or ability to pay impact our recruitment decisions

Yet, I don't imagine you would want to trade places with any of the guys you blackballed from your friendly club. Having been a navy fighter pilot, are you really going to try to tell me, with a straight face, about how hard it was to pay for school or fit in?

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#107

Post by bobthechef »

agjacobson wrote: post #41

1. Frats select for lower overall academic ability. Few physics, biochem, ee majors. This bleeds over into their easier major. 2. Frats select for larger physical stature and attractiveness. This deselects for academic performance and strongly selects for business success. 3. Most importantly, there is little artistic, creative, or purely intellectual emphasis here. If a young person is dedicated to "going for the mo…

> Frats select for larger physical stature and attractiveness. This deselects for academic performance and strongly selects for business success

Physical stature and attractiveness are negatively correlated with academic performance? Sounds like you're repeating a stereotype. Can you cite evidence of that? (I have come across studies, e.g., Kanazawa 2011, that show significant positive correlation between intelligence and attractiveness. Also, frats are not composed of purely attractive people. That's just Hollywood movie nonsense. I've met plenty of unattractive and rather dull frat members.)

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#108

Post by danielam »

peteretep wrote: post #75
uptownfunk wrote: post #33

Wish I had joined a frat in Uni.. What no one told me in Uni is that: + You're either tech or not tech, and not tech is not sexy in the valley + You need experience, no one cares about all the extra coursework you do, experience is king + Don't wear a suit to an interview in the valley, ever. + Your connections are invaluable, form lasting relationships, it's one of those weird things where not studying pays off, a l…

I'm a recruiter who doesn't work with any companies in the Valley, and I'm curious about this: > Don't wear a suit to an interview > in the valley, ever. Really? Almost everywhere else in the world, not wearing a suit to an interview is a weak negative signal, as it shows you're unlikely to be able to put up with even small amounts of the inherent corporate bullshit that occurs in companies. Even if you'll never wear…

I think this is generally the case for tech companies in the United States and for startups around the world. Personally, I can't name a single tech company where interviewees are expected to wear suits to interviews. If there are any such bona fide tech companies (versus companies with tech teams), I imagine they're older corporations.

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#109

Post by beager »

Rather than attack the study and criticize the limited data (one northeastern US university) and the conclusions it draws, I'll say I'm intrigued by the results and would hope for a larger study that brings in a larger data set and controls for school type and geography.

Re: Economic and Academic Consequences of Fraternity Membership

#110

Post by gbacon »

cowpig wrote: post #65
gshulegaard wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an anecdote, but joining a fraternity drastically improved my social skills...and I personally believe these skills are fundamental when it comes to being successful in the work force. Not because being in a fraternity made me a member of a elite alumni group that excludes others, but because it allows me to be a more effective team member. I have not doubt that I would be far less successful if I was as sociall…

I'm pretty sure most people develop social skills in university regardless of whether they join a fraternity. Having a group of adult friends, freedom, roommates, etc, all prepare you for the real world. Fraternities also prepare you for the ugly parts of the real world, though. The real world is full of elite clubs without meritocratic entrance criteria, and learning how to join one and function within one is certai…

Fraternities also prepare you for the ugly parts of the real world, though.

Nice stereotype.

Post reply on HN