Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js • Hacker News Board

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#191

Post by irrational » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:11 AM UTC

_eht wrote: post #114

matthewmacleod wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no sign of an exodus. That’s ludicrously hyperbolic.

You must have missed a lot of news. A personal example: in my company we were comparing React vs Vue internally and the hint of licensing issues committed us to Vue. This Facebook post gives us hope for GraphQL moving away from BSD+, as it is currently in our stack, but without doubt we are considering a move away due to uncertainty.

The same thing happened at my company (Fortune 150 company). We settled on Vue too, and it has been amazing. But if this had happened back when we were considering things we probably would have gone with React.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#192

Post by timdorr » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:12 AM UTC

cies wrote: post #140

So which FB project still have a BSD+patents license. I count: * ReasonML - https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt * GraphQL - https://github.com/graphql/graphql-js/blob/master/PATENTS * react-native - https://github.com/facebook/react-native/blob/master/PATENTS * PlanOut - https://github.com/facebook/planout/blob/master/PATENTS * Flow - https://github.com/facebook/flow/blob/master/PATENTS * Haxl…

GraphQL has an ongoing discussion about this (that predates much of the recent flare ups about PATENTS): https://github.com/facebook/graphql/issues/351

The complicating factor there is Facebook actually has a patent covering the GraphQL specification (along with the fact that they're applying PATENTS to a specification, vs an implementation): https://www.google.com/patents/US9646028

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#193

Post by irrational » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:13 AM UTC

joshmanders wrote: post #90

Twirrim wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strange claim given how many major projects have appeared on the front page of HN because of it, everything from the Apache foundation to Wordpress.

> everything from the Apache foundation to Wordpress. Those were the only two.

Only 2 that you know of. I work for a Fortune 150 company and we settled on Vue almost solely due to the licensing issue.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#194

Post by guelo » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:14 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #174

guelo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If BSD+patent was widely adopted it could disarm all sides equally.

No, it only puts power in the hands of the big players. It might mean the big players can't sue each other, but they can absolutely sue the smaller companies. BSD + Patents only "disarms" anyone who's actually using the licensed software, and perhaps more importantly, depending on it to the extent that they can't reasonably move away if they lose the patent grant. Even if Facebook did start using OSS from some small…

Patents offer small companies no protection in a dispute with a large company. The legal fight is too expensive.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#195

Post by andrewingram » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:17 AM UTC

Since i'm not a lawyer, I have questions...

The patents grant was irrevocable except under explicitly described conditions. A license change wasn't one of these conditions.

So:

1) Does the patent grant still apply? i.e. is it now MIT + Patents?

2) If yes/no, what about existing users of React? i.e. if you were a user up to the point of the license change, do you get the grant, but new users don't?

3) Doesn't not having the grant make us worse off? Presumably only the Apache 2 license would be an improvement in this regard?

4) Is this all just PR theater?

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#196

Post by irrational » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:18 AM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #6

Looks like React Native isn't included in the list for a license update.

Yeah, that is a downer. I'm going to wait and see what they decide to do about React Native before asking my company's lawyers if we can use React now.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#197

Post by karlshea » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:18 AM UTC

ngrilly wrote: post #157

ploxiln wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's licensed MIT, the Engineers just say "it's MIT license like half of the libraries we already use" and it's a legal non-issue. If the license is not one of the standard ones already in use, and it mentions patents, suddenly legal gets involved and it's a disaster. They're very risk-adverse and no one's really sure what will happen when it gets to court. It doesn't have to make sense - after all, most software…

I don't get your point about MIT licensed being a standard. The BSD license used by React is a standard too.

But BSD+Patents isn't.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#198

Post by wmccullough » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:20 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #168

CydeWeys wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, big thanks go out to Wordpress. They're no small part of this win for Free Software.

Well...now back to writing code and shipping things...we can all put our irrational fantasies of patent litigation and being "unacquirable" startups due to React to rest.

I love HN, and I hate to risk my account, but I'm tired of responses like this.

You're being an asswipe. There is no reason for you to respond this way. The lens upon which you view the world must be pretty god damned shallow to make these kinds of statements. If you want to be a fuckstick and reply like this, please find another community.

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#199

Post by cbhl » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:21 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #174

guelo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If BSD+patent was widely adopted it could disarm all sides equally.

No, it only puts power in the hands of the big players. It might mean the big players can't sue each other, but they can absolutely sue the smaller companies. BSD + Patents only "disarms" anyone who's actually using the licensed software, and perhaps more importantly, depending on it to the extent that they can't reasonably move away if they lose the patent grant. Even if Facebook did start using OSS from some small…

Both Facebook and Google's lawyers want to create a world where software patents don't block innovation.

BSD + Patents doesn't look like the way we'll get there. Is there a way we can get there without putting "power in the hands of the big players" in the interim?

Re: Relicensing React, Jest, Flow, and Immutable.js

#200

Post by irrational » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 12:22 AM UTC

Kilenaitor wrote: post #69

CydeWeys wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the list of packages they're truly open sourcing is intentionally small, then. They're only truly open sourcing the ones that are very popular and that had a huge amount of outcry over the license. That makes it worse.

> That makes it worse. In what way does re-licensing their most popular packages make it worse? It says they're evaluating. Doesn't say no and as demonstrated here it doesn't mean they wont change their mind later.

It creates continued uncertainty. If all the tools/libraries in the React ecosystem (such as React Native) don't all have the license, then we will probably stay the course with Vue. While Vue is amazing, React has a larger ecosystem. But if that entire ecosystem isn't available due to licenses then we might as well stick with Vue.