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EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

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Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law says they have no rights? That seems to supercede the constitution, which can't be done. Constitution needs to be interpreted in this case.

The argument I've heard is that the constitution only applies to people who are in the US and her citizens. At a border crossing you're not in the US, and if you're not a US citizen, then I think you literally have no rights.

I've seen that argument too, but it is false. There are no clauses in the constitution and particularly the bill of rights that limit rights to only US citizens on US soil. (other than restricting that the presidency be held by a citizen.)

The constitution is a document that granted very limited power to the federal government and very broad rights to the citizens.

All of what we have now-- from the TSA to the the NSA to DOE is unconstitutional.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#52
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law says they have no rights? That seems to supercede the constitution, which can't be done. Constitution needs to be interpreted in this case.

The argument I've heard is that the constitution only applies to people who are in the US and her citizens. At a border crossing you're not in the US, and if you're not a US citizen, then I think you literally have no rights.

That argument is wrong, the constitution not only applies to US citizens while they are out of the US, but it also applies to people who aren't US citizens.

"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive ANY PERSON of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to ANY PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#53
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law says they have no rights? That seems to supercede the constitution, which can't be done. Constitution needs to be interpreted in this case.

The argument I've heard is that the constitution only applies to people who are in the US and her citizens. At a border crossing you're not in the US, and if you're not a US citizen, then I think you literally have no rights.

The argument I make is that the Constitution exists to simultaneously establish a government and limit its powers, and applies to all agents of said government no matter where in the universe they may be.

If the border crossing is not within the jurisdiction of the US, its agents have no authority there, and if it is within the jurisdiction of the US, its agents are subject to its laws and bound to obey them. And if the agent stands one foot in and one foot out, the person seeking entry ought to be able to turn around and return whence they came with all their possessions intact whenever they decide the crossing has become too burdensome and that they no longer wish to enter.

A citizen of France has as much right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure by an agent of the US government in New York as in Paris, or in London. The Constitution is the adhesion contract for all persons seeking to become employees of the nation. It just so happens that no court in the US has been established asserting jurisdiction over territory outside the US, so if said Frenchperson had experienced a violation of their 4th Amendment rights by, for instance, a CIA spook without a warrant, in their own home in France, there is no court available to take the case other than the Supreme Court itself. It simply won't take the case, just because no one wants to open that can of worms.

The de facto situation is that the US government does whatever TF it wants outside the US, because it has the money, might, and influence to get away with it, and the voting public back home just can't give enough focus to international shenanigans as well as their regular, day-to-day problems.

By a strict reading, it breaks its own laws all the time, with absolute impunity. As a lifelong American, I have never heard any politician so much as mention this, even to dismiss it out of hand as a non-issue.

Unlocking an electronic device to examine the bits stored on it is, in my opinion, an unreasonable search and seizure that goes well beyond the scope of the eminently reasonable searches for and seizures of physical contraband at border crossings. Therefore, by its own rules for unreasonable searches, a warrant must be obtained by the US government from itself before said unlocking can happen.

Furthermore, if I saw a sign saying, "YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS", I would be pissed. Regardless of any laws in force, everyone has the right to be treated with a default level of respect and basic human dignity by their fellow humans, and to travel about their own planet without some arrogant yard ape turning their trip into a GDMF Kafka novella. You have the right to be addressed courteously. You have the right to protest any government overreach, even if it trivial, and even if it is not your government. You have the right to live free in the free world.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#54

I haven't traveled abroad in a couple years, so I'm not sure exactly how this works, but I would be unable to contain my laughter if some CBP cop asked me to unlock my phone or laptop. Is this something that actually happens nowadays? Why on earth would anyone ever consent to this nonsense?

> Is this something that actually happens nowadays?

Yes, I personally know someone this has happened to. Also resulted in my own personal name/address/other info (amongst that of many others) also being demanded and hence provided to the government.

> Why on earth would anyone ever consent to this nonsense?

What would you do if you weren't a citizen and had a family to come back home to? Just be okay with being denied entry?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument I've heard is that the constitution only applies to people who are in the US and her citizens. At a border crossing you're not in the US, and if you're not a US citizen, then I think you literally have no rights.

That argument is wrong, the constitution not only applies to US citizens while they are out of the US, but it also applies to people who aren't US citizens. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive ANY PERSON of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to ANY PERSON within its jurisdict…

I agree that your statement is morally and logically correct.

But from a legal perspective, it's quite false. SCOTUS has said that the government's need to ensure security at the border leads to a different balance of rights versus authority when you're near the border. (you should also ignore the fact that these rules put 2/3 of the US population "near the border" and thus having weakened protection over their rights)

We can yell all we want about the clear meaning of the Constitution, but that doesn't stop the government from confiscating our stuff and throwing us in jail.

For what it's worth.... There's a statement attributed to Abraham Lincoln, "The Constitution is not a suicide pact", which is taken to mean that we shouldn't be so dogmatic about the Constitution as to let it destroy us. I think the words of this statement are correct, but everyone interprets them backwards. It's not a warning, it's an affirmation. As Americans, we should be confident that our Constitution is not something that can harm us if taken too literally. It's not a pretty idea, a luxury that becomes dangerous if indulged in too much. Rather, the Constitution is, indeed, our strength.

We should have confidence that things like the free market of ideas that our freedom of speech creates, or that ready militia made up of all able adults who exercise the right to bear arms can defend us from invaders or errant government. I believe that our freedoms are not luxuries that we should forgo when the government decides there's sufficient danger: it's holding fast to them that will deliver us from danger.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#57
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should no longer have any expectation of privacy The above poster suggests even worse. "until you are actually in the United States, you have no reasonable expectation of the Bill of Rights.". They suggest you have no constitutional rights outside of the US border. Forget your cell phone, this would imply that black bag operations are completely legal as long as the US citizen is outside of US borders at the time.

About time there is a system where you can make a super cool backup of your entire smartphone and laptop on a remote system, then completely wipe these devices and restore it when you are safe from the border officers. icloud total backup or something :) "Sure officer, i'll unlock my phone and my laptop. There's absolutely nothing on it."

What do you have to hide?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a dumb response. Yes, this happened. And nothing that is currently inconveniencing millions would have made a shred of a difference there. This has been beaten to death for over 15 years. Cockpit doorlocks and passengers being more willing to actively resist hijackers is what made the difference. Border searches on incoming (not domestic) flights not so much, especially not of electronics data as well as persona…

TIL that a relatively mild increase in border security is an "overreaction" to entire floors of people being incinerated alive. God Bless. I'm glad they weren't your family.

It's been almost twenty years since this happened. How long do we need before we are allowed to make rational decisions instead of emotional ones when it comes to terrorism and the 9/11 attacks?

Sure ~5,000 people died in 9/11 and that's awful, but how many people die in car crashes every year? How many people die from smoking, cardiac issues, diabetes, gun violence, drugs, workplace accidents, medication non-adherence etc etc? How many people have died in the wars that we started on the (incorrect) grounds that they would prevent future terrorist attacks? You don't see us going crazy trying to prevent any of these causes of death even though they amount to far more deaths than terrorism ever has or ever will.

Please stop fear mongering and look at the data. Just because something is scary and different doesn't mean it's actually a real threat to the United States. It makes absolutely no sense to expend the resources and effort that we do given the scope of the problem.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#59
Does anyone know of a case where a search of electronic material beyond physical inspection actually resulted in any illegal materials?

I don't doubt that our current body of legislation and judicial precedents make this practice legal, but I honestly can't see this policy actually doing anything.

The classic case of illegal electronic information would be child pornography - but who would be stupid enough to bring it with them to the border for consumption or for trafficking, when the Internet exists? If they were to bring it to the border, what's to stop them from encrypting it not divulging the key?

Beyond C.P., I can imagine certain trade secrets being illegal, like Samuel Slater back in the day. But that was to the benefit of America, and the British were right to suspect him due to his position giving him the capability to leak information that was held secret by state laws. American analogues obviously enforce the unwanted disclosure of state secrets and such based on identities and institutions prior to crossing the border - which makes what the CBP are doing redundant at best.

Terrorists do not need anything outside of this country to operate. We've seen domestic and foreign terrorists alike build their bombs with legal sources of information and material.

IMO, what happened was a power hungry busy body official in the CBP spearheaded this policy. Just another case of crappy people in crappy politics, making crappy solutions to nonexistent problems. It is fortunate that the rest of humanity will be reasonable enough to revert such egregious and useless wastes of resources.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#60
post #48
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should no longer have any expectation of privacy The above poster suggests even worse. "until you are actually in the United States, you have no reasonable expectation of the Bill of Rights.". They suggest you have no constitutional rights outside of the US border. Forget your cell phone, this would imply that black bag operations are completely legal as long as the US citizen is outside of US borders at the time.

No, it implies that they are not illegal, and I would agree. That doesn't necessarily mean they are legal - they are alegal since US law does not apply outside its borders. Just like there doesn't need to be a US law making it legal for you to hire a prostitute in the Netherlands or gamble in an Indian reservation. Admittedly, that argument is not very convincing for the US in particular so pretend we are talking abo…

Even the US government doesn't claim that US law does not apply outside the border; that is simply false.

Case in point: having sex with a child outside the US is still a crime you can be prosecuted for under US law when you return.

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