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The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

theguardian.com

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Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#101

Post by oh_sigh »

mlinksva wrote: post #44
CrasVestibulum wrote: post #6

I fondly hope for a reverse wealth drain from UK to India at the same scale or more.

Indeed, or at least the dissolution of imperial legacy culture through domination by the populations and cultures of ex-colonies. Independence was a mistake. It only cemented global apartheid. There is still time to demand democracy instead, starting with imperial states granting the residents of former colonies the full rights of citizens unconditionally.

So basically, you'd like to just destroy any productivity the UK has by flooding it with low skilled ag-workers who would need to live off of government subsidies?

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#102

Post by oh_sigh »

arrayjumper wrote: post #99
briane80 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hate our culture so much why do you want citizenship?

A case can be made that since the British looted foreign countries to create their infrastructure it is only fair that the citizens of those countries be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their ancestors' labours.

A case can be made for a lot of things. That isn't the same as saying a good case can be made for it.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#103

Post by abhi3 »

apsec112 wrote: post #15
newyankee wrote: post #5

It is actually amazing how little British folks today know about their own historical misdeeds, they may accept the issues towards USA and other countries but tend to downplay atrocities magnitudes higher in India and other countries India is important because it was the crown jewel of the British empire and was completely destroyed of its soul by the colonialists with very clever mixture of politics, military and ot…

AFAICT, the British Empire gets much more criticism for its various evils than other historical empires do. Very few people in the West, for example, even know about the ethnic cleansing of the Greeks under the Ottoman Empire ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide ), and that was less than a century ago. Probably the worst European colonialists were the Belgians, of all people, under King Leopold II ( https:/…

Uhmmmm, does the Ottoman Empire or Mughal Empire still exist? The British Government is still run in the name for the Monarch who was the monarch of the Britsh empire while it still existed. The government is still run by the descendants of the British political elite (eg. House of lords) who carried out those atrocities. No common people should be blamed for sins of a regime but the elite who perpetuated and benefitted from those atrocities and passed on the benefits to their offsprings are fair game.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#104

Post by GauntletWizard »

travmatt wrote: post #17
newyankee wrote: post #5

It is actually amazing how little British folks today know about their own historical misdeeds, they may accept the issues towards USA and other countries but tend to downplay atrocities magnitudes higher in India and other countries India is important because it was the crown jewel of the British empire and was completely destroyed of its soul by the colonialists with very clever mixture of politics, military and ot…

I've heard some Brits complain about American misdeeds throughout the Middle East without a hint hypocrisy crossing their face.

There's a scene in the first episode of Sherlock where it's pointed out that Dr. Watson is a "British doctor injured in the war in Afghanistan" - I laughed. Apparently I was the only one in my circle of friends who got that that was the original character's biography, written in 1887!

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#105

Post by njt »

ak39 wrote: post #65

If Indian history is up your alley, I heartily recommend William Dalrymple's set of three impressively researched and written books: 1. The White Mughals 2. The Last Mughal 3. Kohinoor I began reading The Last Mughal just as I had left Delhi and Agra and I regretted not starting it before my visit. Dalrymple knows his onions.

Dalrymple is an excellent historian and author. I also highly recommend his first book, "City of Djinns: A Year in Delhi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Djinns).

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#106

Post by pm90 »

jhgb wrote: post #100
septra wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Indian subcontinent had already experienced the Mauryan and the Mughal empires (both bringing immense prosperity to the region) before the British showed up and looted the place clean.

It's fascinating how one can read claims such as "Mauryan and the Mughal empires bringing immense prosperity to the region" with no substantiation here and then read a scholarly work on the topic of history of world's economy that in connection with India talks about "wasteful use of resources and negligible levels of productive investment" or "little motive to improve landed property" or "[raising] so much in tax re…

Absolutely, completely bullshit. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15313608 for a very detailed rebuttal.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#107

Post by quotemstr »

sol_remmy wrote: post #48
newyankee wrote: post #5

It is actually amazing how little British folks today know about their own historical misdeeds, they may accept the issues towards USA and other countries but tend to downplay atrocities magnitudes higher in India and other countries India is important because it was the crown jewel of the British empire and was completely destroyed of its soul by the colonialists with very clever mixture of politics, military and ot…

Misdeeds of the British aristocracy . Leave my grandparents out of this. IF you ever meet a Englishman from nobility, know that he is culpable to blame for all of this.

> IF you ever meet a Englishman from nobility, know that he is culpable to blame for all of this.

So you believe in inherited guilt? I reject that idea. None of us is responsible for the actions of our ancestors.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#108

Post by r00fus »

throw2016 wrote: post #83

Democracy is meaningless if lobbyists are allowed to run rampant. You elect representatives once very 4-5 years and these guys are working 24/7 everyday to get their way with billions of dollars at play. What's the point then of elections if its continuous lobbying with periodic interruptions that merely change the player? Add revolving doors, favours to family and friends, media propaganda and modern democracy cease…

There's a theory that modern democracy is equivalent to bread & circuses. An efficient way to keep the hoi palloi occupied while they're being looted.

I mean, we have more oversight on casinos than voting machines, and more interest in who's first-round in the sports drafts than who's standing in elections.

It takes a carefully crafted culture to keep a democracy defanged enough to not get in the way of the wealthy and powerful yet legitimate enough to defray mass revolts.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#109

Post by jhgb »

pm90 wrote: post #106
jhgb wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fascinating how one can read claims such as "Mauryan and the Mughal empires bringing immense prosperity to the region" with no substantiation here and then read a scholarly work on the topic of history of world's economy that in connection with India talks about "wasteful use of resources and negligible levels of productive investment" or "little motive to improve landed property" or "[raising] so much in tax re…

Absolutely, completely bullshit. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15313608 for a very detailed rebuttal.

"Bullshit?" Do you offer a better overview material for world's economic history? Your "very detailed rebuttal" appears neither particularly detailed nor does it touch my response to the particular claim of "pre-British Indian empires bringing immense prosperity to the region" which (not the claim, the response to it) you can find for yourself in Maddison.

But now that you mention it, in your "very detailed rebuttal", you find claims about destroying infrastructure. Setting aside the counterintuitive nature of even an exploitative regime destroying productive capital (to rob itself of profits?), Maddison outright claims that the colonial government increased irrigated area in India by a factor of eight. I'm not sure what else counts as infrastructure in a predominantly agricultural society but irrigation infrastructure has to rank pretty high on the list. So that sole claim of destruction can't possibly be the whole truth.

I'd rather prefer a more reasonable response that your visceral knee-jerk reaction. "Absolutely, completely bullshit" is hardly a valuable feedback. I'm going to stick with Maddison for now until he gets surpassed.

Re: The East India Company, the original corporate raiders

#110

Post by vikasg »

briane80 wrote: post #62

British Empire best empire. On balance probably a greater force for good despite it's misdeeds. The Guardian would love it if we all self flagellated for historical events and ignore any of the good we did it's part of their left wing doctrine.

What if someone drove you out of your house, sold that house, gave that money to 10 starving families in India, set them up for life?

That would be an overall good.

(despite the misdeed).

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