Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fighting the minimum wage is a political dead end. People won't vote for that, since they believe people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. That's the case in Australia, at least.
In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
Basic Income Research Proposal
351–360 of 427 posts
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fighting the minimum wage is a political dead end. People won't vote for that, since they believe people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. That's the case in Australia, at least.
In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
Do people care if wages are higher than they should be, according to supply and demand, and causing some underemployment? Even economists don't seem to agree on the effect of minimum wages. Generally, I'd guess people want more pay for themselves, up to the point that they genuinely fear their own unemployment. It seems that both employees and employers prefer to keep wages a bit over the equilibrium level.
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#353I must say after reading through to the full proposal, I was a little disappointed it doesn't include much that stood out as different or "disruptive" or "new" as I would have hoped given that it has grown out of YC. YCR has definitely done some cool things and is moving very quickly and again congrats on the successes so far.
Maybe other things are going on behind the scenes that were not included in the proposal and are not on the website? I couldn't help but get the impression while reading the proposal that this sounds like a proposal that any ol' well-funded private foundation could have come up with, and unfortunately I fear the study will run into the same problems those other private foundation type studies run into while in progress and once completed. What a waste and shame if that happens.
I fully understand there are limitations to these studies, and rules to play by, and there are many working components as these studies grow bigger in scale and touch more people and must interact more with the government and press then research teams kind of need to become more risk averse and CYA a lot more. But couldn't there be a secondary smaller research studies going that actually try new and interesting UBI research and try to answer some of the harder questions UBI faces as well as look harder at some of the multi-sigma rare events (pros and cons) of UBI that could happen.
Also I want to commend YCR for what looks to be a legit "people first" research approach. I wish more policy type researchers follow your lead and think about how people might be affected or not affected as a result of policy instead of just making assumptions based on big macro numbers changing and then trying to change those numbers.
Again no offense, but this study feels like similar studies: Get some smart brand name Phd's, spend a lot of money and spend a lot of time to get data needed to calculate some "results" numbers to support a policy idea or two. Great, these "results" will end up in some random think tank type policy articles and papers that government representatives have thrown their way every day by various lobbying and advocacy groups. These results will probably make a few good buzzworthy headlines on various news and "pseudo" news sites from NYtimes down to buzzfeed. Great.
Headline: "A new large UBI study just showed xyz positives happen under UBI but there's a couple exceptions...".
This is a lot of money and time to run a study you know no matter how successful it is what UBI naysayers will still have tons of ammunition to complain why policy shouldn't be changed yet or at least not dramatically. What then? Another 5 year study?
Cool story bro. Good studies that lead to good policies do 2 things: 1. They show evidence of doing the good thing they are suppose to do. 2. They shutdown most or all of the things the other side is using to prevent the policy from passing. This study is not doing enough of either, especially #2.
Are you guys studying things like: The psychology of people once UBI is more common and less stigmatized not just the psychology of getting unconditional money? How to pay for it? Seriously here. What will the uptake rate be? Will the first years pull down tax payers into UBI before re-adjusting and they return to work. What are you really shooting for here? 20% 33% 50% feeding back into the payer loop? What tactics might groups or business use to reverse or combat the psychology on UBI, what will be used to take advantage of people who suddenly have money and no restrictions on it? Hello more MLM schemes? Look at Norway news this week and their SWF, don't make that mistake.
I realize you have aggregation problems and methodological individualism stuff and what not. But start a moonshots division in YCR please. Good luck.
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe you would, and you know what? Good for you if you do. Just about everyone I know would start a business, volunteer, do creative things, contribute to making the world a better place. But, at the end of the day, I don't care how people spend their time or their money. If some fraction of the population wanted to bum around on their minimal UBI for the rest of their lives, fine by me. It's never going to lead to…
If you don't care at all, then why are you okay financing that situation with your taxes?
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
Self-interest overrides politics in this case. Forcing employers to pay more is also likely to be preferable to helping the low-paid in a way that involved raising taxes.
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
>My taxes are already pushing oppressive. Raise them further, and I'll seriously consider "going Galt" Under UBI that would be your prerogative. Most highly productive individuals and all corporations will carry on producing. >You're subsidizing the unproductive, and punishing the productive. You may have moral qualms with a UBI system. You will need to come to terms with these doubts in the midterm future, as UBI wi…
There does indeed come a point where taxation reaches high enough levels that people (and groups of them a la corporations) lose interest in exerting greater effort. The popular actor Ronald Regan famously noted that he would have produced far more movies, but it just wasn't worth it under the confiscatory tax rates. Most of the time, people will indeed continue producing without such drastic obviousness - but there…
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#357This is a test of charity, not UBI. 1. The money involved is voluntarily donated, not confiscated from taxpayers - an essential difference between tax-funded vs charity. 2. 3000 recipients is vanishingly small on a state or federal level. When everyone gets their monthly $UBI check, supply-and-demand dictates that "free money" will be duly devalued, with prices of low-end essential goods/services rising to match (say…
I can't wait for UBI. I have a six figure income, but I'll quit the moment I get UBI, move into a tiny apartment and then spend the remainder of my days happily reading library books.
If you're making six figures, you can make 20 years of UBI in 4 years and stash it in the bank. Why not quit now?
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
In practice hardly anyone believes people who work a full week should have a decent standard of living. If people actually believed that, then no one would purchase goods manufactured in Mexico, China, etc. Instead, it's more accurate to say that people don't want the inconvenience of actually seeing poor people.
Also, self-interest is involved in maintaining the minimum wage, since people may imagine that if wages are dragged down at the lower end, it may pull them down at higher levels too. Minimum wages in other countries don't matter, since they have no intention of working in those countries. Do people care if wages are higher than they should be, according to supply and demand, and causing some underemployment? Even eco…
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot more video games will be played
Maybe for a year. Then people will want meaning in their lives and would seek meaningful productive things to do that they want to do. The reason people right now love gaming so much and often to an unhealthy degree is because its an escape from a life they don't like living but have no choice in because they are chained to a job to survive.
Re: Basic Income Research Proposal
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
But what are you basing that belief on? Thats what I would like to know. Unless you don't think computers will be able to do most of the things that create fundamental value in society. Of course you can imagine all sorts of services on top (prostitution, games etc) but the idea of the job market as something that we just keep creating new jobs for is simply not backed by reality. What fundamentally new jobs have we…
> But what are you basing that belief on? Which part of it? Not too many generations ago, many people lived entirely off the land. A large portion of people's "jobs" were displaced from agriculture and yet over time new jobs keep getting created. There are jobs that no one had even thought of that are now providing for the livelihood of many people. Yes I believe there will also be new things that people want and new…
New jobs keeps getting created simply because the markets have grown through population growth and globalization. If you look in the US out of all the new jobs created since 2009 95% of them are temp jobs not structural jobs. Temp jobs means that the job is being perceived as less valuable (no healthcare) than ex a structurally solid job. The actual market value of most jobs is diminishing. At the same time cost of living is going up up up.
The jobs no one have thought of are literally a drop in the ocean. They pay a few people very well while 90% don't make a dime on them. And they are only "new jobs" in the sense that they are about a new medium or technology. But fundamentally nothing new about them.
The problem with most jobs is that they don't actually require the whole human only a small part of the humans abilities. Unless you don't think technology can replace that function I have a hard time seeing where you get your view that it's not an actual problem from.
Technology allow you to be competitive which mean you need to keep investing in technology to be competitive. Yet income is actually declining and cost is going up.
Here is an interesting graph showing price change:
https://twitter.com/hnshah/status/909557796873662464/photo/1
How is that an illustration of things becoming more accessible? Unless of course you mean that TV series covers people fundamental needs.
No not at all. Of course I think automation can keep getting better but there are plenty of jobs that I don't see computers doing anywhere in the near term - building a house, paving a street, cooking food, being a nurse, being a garbage man, etc etc.
Yet there are already technologies doing that today. This will only increase over time.
Um seriously? I know people who literally are "social media managers"
Social media manager are just marketing people in another medium nothing new there. Selling ebooks is just selling books in another media. these aren't actually new types of jobs and it's a very very very small fraction of society who actually make a living from these. You can't live on likes.
The benefits of technology is desired by people and thats what matters here.