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Basic Income Research Proposal

basicincome.ycr.org

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Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#311

Post by kkmnkhjn »

cisanti wrote: post #269
greedo wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at social spending rates by government over time. It's typical that they rise, despite attempts to restrain them. Critics call attempts to slow the growth rate "cuts" and paint the reformers as heartless.

Because people lack gratitude for the life we have. (including me) No generation before has been so prosperous or lived so long, healthy lives. Now how do you solve that problem?

> long, healthy lives.

Whose? Most people seem to be dying of cancer at 50 these days.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#312

Post by majewsky »

CapsAdmin wrote: post #88
vasco wrote: post #28

I would speculate that any end date on this scenario will invalidate results. What a person does if it is guaranteed a job for life vs 5 years is wildly different, as you'll need to make sure when those 5 years are up, you'll be ready to enter the job market again, etc. I believe the same will happen with basic income. If we want to study where people gravitate to more fulfilling jobs, feel happier and so on, you nee…

This assumes people will enjoy a 5 year vacation though. In Norway if you're chronically disabled you can apply for something that seems very similar to basic income. I'm in that system and in my experience most of the people I know in this system are bored. It could be because all their friends are working so it's difficult to meet new people, there's also that this system is for disabled people and people with ment…

> But most of my friends i met in this system ended up finding a job, despite being promised permanent "universal income".

So this experience stands against one of the most common arguments against basic income, "nobody is going to work anymore". It validates my belief that people will still seek purpose (and monetary rewards) even when their basic needs are fulfilled.

> I've heard this is to encourage people to work and I've heard (from the people who work in the system) that it's successful so far.

Always good to hear of policy that's actually working. At times, watching the news makes it feel like all of politics is just a smoke and mirrors game without any positive outcomes.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#313

Post by bduerst »

billmalarky wrote: post #240
bduerst wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal Basic Income (UBI) at it's core increases income for everyone - universally . What you're thinking about is a negative income tax or some other BI that is disproportionately weighted.

At a glance (and because of the name) it appears that way, but it does not universally increase income, it gives everyone universal access to basic income. Many people (the wealthy) will have their net income (income after taxes) go down considerably in a UBI system. For example, everyone gets $12k a year in UBI income, however funding such a system will require a fairly stiff tax increase (this is how the wealth red…

The top income bracket is 3% of the population. You're still increasing the income of 97% of the population, which is what causes inflation on income-elastic prices like housing.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#314

Post by yarrel »

Jedi72 wrote: post #57

Basic Income is often proposed in conjunction with cutting basic social services & welfare payments, thus achieving a net gain for the government. This seems to make it attractive to both the neoliberals and the neosocialismés, but I believe this is a terrible mistake that will have the exact opposite effect to what its supporters intend - there will be more poverty and debt slavery, not less. (Methodology debates as…

We don't need thought experiments to analyse UBI. There's data on trials of it going back half a century.

The book "Inventing The Future" by Nick Srnicek and Alex Williams gives a detailed explanation of how to use UBI to move beyond neoliberalism.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#315

Post by bduerst »

billmalarky wrote: post #245
bduerst wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>UBI does not "create" new money and just give it to everyone (which would cause inflation). It's a wealth redistribution. UBI is Universal Basic Income , meaning that income is increased for everyone universally. Nobody is claiming that money is created out of thin air. What you're thinking about is a negative income tax or some other disproportionately weighted welfare program.

Not true see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15306562

That still doesn't explain why you think people are saying that money is created out of thin air.

Increasing the income for the vast majority of the population inflates the prices of income-elastic goods and services.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#316

Post by majewsky »

nnfy wrote: post #266
Matumio wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poor people aren't just poor because they have no money, and by and large throwing more money at them won't solve anything. No, poverty is all about the lack of money. You cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you have no boots. A relevant article about "the psychology of scarcity": https://thecorrespondent.com/4664/why-do-the-poor-make-such-...

You cannot pull yourself up by anyones bootstraps if you dont care to, or are so far removed from functional society that you dont know how a job works, and there is no one in your family or circle of acquaintances to teach you to learn because your community is as unortunately poor and ignorant as you are. UBI is not the answer to the modern ghetto. Regardless of race. We much first address problems with culture and…

> there is no one in your family or circle of acquaintances to teach you to learn [how a job works]

Sounds like you're having the wrong discussion. It shouldn't be about "UBI" or "not UBI", it should be about educating teenagers and young adults from poor families how to make a living and climb up the social ladder.

(I'm going to make a guess and say that this part of the discussion is ignored because it's evident that there's only limited space in the upper and middle classes of society.)

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#317

Post by nugget »

ctdonath wrote: post #265

This is a test of charity, not UBI. 1. The money involved is voluntarily donated, not confiscated from taxpayers - an essential difference between tax-funded vs charity. 2. 3000 recipients is vanishingly small on a state or federal level. When everyone gets their monthly $UBI check, supply-and-demand dictates that "free money" will be duly devalued, with prices of low-end essential goods/services rising to match (say…

> 3. Many who currently produce wealth to make ends meet - paying income-scaled taxes included - may very well be enticed to "go Galt" by seeking a self-sufficient lifestyle where $UBI/mo covers all cash needs without one having to get a job per se. (I find this option quite attractive.)

I also find this theoretical aspect of UBI quite attractive - the potential for a lot of self-organization into self-sustaining communities of scale in rural, low cost of living areas.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#318

Post by lvivier »

billmalarky wrote: post #160
bduerst wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people in every location have their income increased, then the housing prices inflate in every location. Saying, "People can just move" is missing the point. It isn't that they can't afford to live where they are now, it's that BI will be absorbed by price inflation everywhere .

This is a misunderstanding of how both macro inflation occurs (money supply growing faster than true value of wealth it abstracts), and how price is set (supply and demand). UBI does not "create" new money and just give it to everyone (which would cause inflation). It's a wealth redistribution. That is, many people will see their income go down under UBI (probably most HN readers for example). The money supply will r…

I’m not convinced that UBI will dramatically affect the housing supply for many people who would rely on it. Maybe you can expand on what you mean in light of an example:

I live near Vancouver, which is the most expensive housing market in Canada. Poor people here have access to free health care, a provincial welfare program, and a permanent disability allowance. The income amount is enough to live on in some parts of the province, but not Vancouver. Still there's a glut of unemployed poor people who prefer substandard housing or homelessness over relocating to where they could afford to live. They don’t choose to live anywhere else, even though they're not in Vancouver to “make a living”.

Programs aimed at helping the poor here focus on providing subsidized housing, not relocation.

It seems to me that if UBI doesn’t help these people afford a better standard of living where they are now, then it won’t help them at all unless they’re forced to relocate. What am I missing?

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#319

Post by wooter »

nnfy wrote: post #262
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please. Have you ever lived in poverty? Yes, yes I have. I grew up in it. And most of my friends are struggling to make ends meet, working at restaurants, nail salons, and cafes. There's no glory in realizing that you can't make rent this month and you need to beg your landlord, or that after rent you have $50 leftover for a month's expenses. I've been there. > They live out of the projects but stereotypically driv…

I am not arguing that supply if finite, I am arguing that extraction of supply is finite and if you deincentivise millions of people from working while throwing money at them, you further reduce supply and exacerbate long term economic problems. >So you're using a stereotype to make your argument? Come on The argument could have been made without the stereotype, I agree. But it is an open secret in NYC that people, e…

thanks for trying but HN doesn't want to hear anything but socialist apologia these days.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#320

Post by sintaxi »

chillwaves wrote: post #263
neilwilson wrote: post #74

The design is flawed from the start. If you have any sort of income guarantee in a system where (i) there are others in the same currency area who don't receive the income (ii) the amount is insufficient to live on (iii) there are insufficient jobs overall in the economy for all that want them (iv) it isn't permanent then all you actually have is a tax credit system with a different withdrawal mechanism. https://medi…

> Overall basic income is theft from workers Disagree, basic income is equitable distribution of a collective legacy of increasingly advanced tools and a necessary recognition of limited natural resources and duty to share a small portion to every human being on the basis of birth into our society, aka social contract.

I'll grant you that you've found a clever justification for stealing from producers. The question is what do you do once the people who are generating the value no longer agree?
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