Live data from Hacker News

Basic Income Research Proposal

basicincome.ycr.org

281–290 of 427 posts

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#281
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI isn't expensive. Its wealth redistribution, not consumption. Military spending is a black hole of money - you get very little R&D or productive GDP growth yields out of it but it stucks hundreds of billions out of the country every year. Social security is better than military spending but usually worse than UBI - recipients of social security are some of the richest people right now as an age class, so transferr…

>>Military spending is a black hole of money - you get very little R&D or productive GDP growth yields out of it but it stucks hundreds of billions out of the country every year. I am no fan of the military and I agree with your premise, but I would strongly, strongly disagree with the "little R&D" portion of this comment. A great deal of technology we take for granted today was first made available due to the milita…

In terms of R&D for dollar spent, the military is awful compared to fairly parallel state institutions like public universities and NASA. If you want R&D, you shouldn't do it indirectly through researching ways to blow people up and murder - you should just do R&D spending.

A lot of the problems when discussing the military budget are intentions. Nobody is proposing to grow or keep the current scale of the military on the idea its a valuable source of research. It is in the same vein as how you would not fund a basic income for research purposes - surely a lot of valuable R&D would actually come from a UBI by letting more people experiment as a hobby, but you wouldn't use it as an argument for making a UBI because the research per dollar spent ratio would be awful compared to dedicated research institutions.

Funding CERN et al is on the order of magnitudes more bang for your buck if you are spending money to advance science than spending it on a military.

Which relates back to my original point. All government spending needs to be interpreted through one of two lenses - either the government is absorbing an absolutely unavoidable expense and using its scale to lessen the burden (infrastructure maintenance, healthcare, retirement) or it is investing money with the intent for it to improve the country. There is absolutely a lot of overlap, but we are back at intents - when healthcare makes your citizenry healthier more often so they can be more productive that is a nice perk but does not come close to justifying public healthcare spending. Infrastructure can fall into both camps - building last-mile roads is absolutely not in all likelihood going to grow the economy - people would live more densely if not for state subsidies on public housing developments hooking into the public road network. But when they build highways to increase traffic throughput that is almost always with intent to grow the economy.

A UBI falls in both camps, but conservatives should focus on the later benefits. The economic growth potential. On the topic of the military budget, anyone arguing for the current scale of the US military is arguing for a "necessary expense" perspective, not an investment one. Because its investment value is atrocious. And in general people are very skeptical of anything suggested to qualify for the first camp - and we should always be skeptical of those expenses, because they are the legitimate expenses where government spending actually contracts the economy.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#282
post #221

The idea that UBI will wipe away the ignorance and cultural dogma that keeps poor people poor is absurd. How many lottery winners hold on to their winnings? Let's be realistic. If you give the uneducated poor free money, the only thing that will change is how much money they have to spend on junk food and dated electriconics. UBI as a policy in a place like the U.S. is hopelessly niave. Our culture of poverty if the…

> The idea that UBI will wipe away the ignorance and cultural dogma that keeps poor people poor is absurd.

No one is saying that.

> How many lottery winners hold on to their winnings?

Not relevant.

> Let's be realistic. If you give the uneducated poor free money, the only thing that will change is how much money they have to spend on junk food and dated electriconics.

That's the point. UBI isn't welfare, it's not meant to rehabilitate people and make them into workers. If most people who get UBI choose to live off it and not work, and remain poor, fucking great, that's the whole point of the program, to reduce the working population down to those who actually want to work as there aren't going to be enough jobs for everyone and many people would choose not to work if they could.

You just really do not understand what UBI is about, not at all.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#283
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming an awful lot of things about me. Why would I challenge you if I wasn't intersted in what you had to say? You completely ignore that there is no need to structure work if I don't have to hire people to produce or develop my products. This is the whole point and why I believe you are fundamentally looking at this wrong. The industrial revolution replaced physical work, this revolution is replacing inte…

And, yet, your out of hand dismissal fits very well with my assumption that you aren't actually interested in hearing a solution other than UBI. I am not betting on a political, ideological or moral change. Whether we establish a UBI or go with something akin to my above proposals, these are equally political solutions. Neither will happen without a great many people working to make it happen. The only question is wh…

What out of hand dismissal?

I am intersted in hearing actual solutions not wishful thinking based on the idea that humans decide themselves when we obviously don't.

If you want to argue that then I have already asked you how that would happen given the reality we live in.

Gig-work will also be replaced by technology either through digitalization or automation.

95% of jobs created since 2010 are temp jobs i.e. part of the gig-economy, that's obviously not sustainable as there isn't any rise in salaries while as I said the cost of living is rising.

So again unless you believe that technology is not going to take the jobs

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#284
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already sizeable group of have independently wealthy people with inherited money. If we look at how many of these people behave in different wealth categories, it might give a clue. If it's determined that money makes lazy and that's moral hazard there should be really high tax for inheritance.

Easy answer: they lose it. http://time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/ "It takes the average recipient of an inheritance 19 days until they buy a new car."

Adam Smith details that the downfall of feudalism was this very same effect.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#285

One factor that would be lost in a controlled, basic income test is the inflation effect. Implemented on a national scale, cost inflation of basic consumer needs is a near certainty. On a controlled test of 1000 people inflation would be nearly impossible to achieve without localizing the test to an absurd degree. I could see this test could serving as a dataset for calculating anticipated inflation rates on a nation…

Inflation is a result of the money supply growing faster than the national wealth it represents. Example: US goods & services increase in value 5% but the Fed increases the money supply by 8% leads to inflation - the money/value abstraction is out of sync in such a way that money represents less value. Wealth redistributions don't cause inflation. The money abstraction still represents the same amount of wealth, it j…

Regardless of what dollar prices do, real prices should go up as total production decreases from people exiting the labor force.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#286
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, yet, your out of hand dismissal fits very well with my assumption that you aren't actually interested in hearing a solution other than UBI. I am not betting on a political, ideological or moral change. Whether we establish a UBI or go with something akin to my above proposals, these are equally political solutions. Neither will happen without a great many people working to make it happen. The only question is wh…

What out of hand dismissal? I am intersted in hearing actual solutions not wishful thinking based on the idea that humans decide themselves when we obviously don't. If you want to argue that then I have already asked you how that would happen given the reality we live in. Gig-work will also be replaced by technology either through digitalization or automation. 95% of jobs created since 2010 are temp jobs i.e. part of…

Calling it wishful thinking is incredibly dismissive and contemptuous.

If you were genuinely interested, you could read the multiple articles I have already written and linked to. I don't think you have bothered to do that.

I see no reason to engage further.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#287
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not work? Basic income is nearly not enough to access luxuries. Sure you should be able to live off it, but I think most people would likely want more, the difference from forced equality being that you can still work and keep that as luxury money.

> I think most people would likely want more Would they, though? That's the key question that I believe this study (and others like it) fail to address. Depending on the basic income amount, I believe it would be possible to live a fulfilling (if somewhat minimalist) life without needing to supplement that income.

Haven't most studies around UBI shown that the only people that usually don't work when given a UBI are students and mothers (so they can focus on school and their children, respectively)?

Living off the basics is pretty dull. Most people who live ascetic lifestyles by choice usually come from a position of relative wealth and choose it more as an aesthetic or affectation than anything.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#288
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What out of hand dismissal? I am intersted in hearing actual solutions not wishful thinking based on the idea that humans decide themselves when we obviously don't. If you want to argue that then I have already asked you how that would happen given the reality we live in. Gig-work will also be replaced by technology either through digitalization or automation. 95% of jobs created since 2010 are temp jobs i.e. part of…

Calling it wishful thinking is incredibly dismissive and contemptuous. If you were genuinely interested, you could read the multiple articles I have already written and linked to. I don't think you have bothered to do that. I see no reason to engage further.

I call it that because you haven't actually answered the question I asked you with regards to why people would choose that over technology.

Keep in mind you are the one who claimed that we can just design things the way we want them, yet you haven't actually provided anything close to an argument here.

That the gig-economy works for you is great, it's just not an actual argument and it's definitely not an argument against UBI.

Furthermore if you can't actually formulate your own thinking in a comment but are so lazy that you just point me to go read something you are actually showing who isn't really genuinely intersted in this debate.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said without any research backing their statement whatsoever...

It's common sense if you have any interaction with US society. Not every common sense thing needs to be verified by a costly scientific study. Though some researchers try.

Plenty of things that people think are "common sense" are far from it. If you want to make a assertion such that you have, you'll have to have evidence.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confusing the GOP's motivations and their rhetoric. See also: their failure to repeal the ACA despite having the presidency and a majority in both houses.

That's because the GOP isn't a party, it's a coalition of bickering factions that has chosen to prioritize winning over purity. (As opposed to Democrats, who prioritize purity over winning.)

Odd, I would have flipped that statement.
Post reply on HN