French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars • Hacker News Board

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#31

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 3:33 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #27

rjzzleep wrote: post #4

He's not the only one. [1][3] In fact some places like Kyo Aji from Kenichiro Nishi - who is apparently a very good and famous chef - go as far as ban michelin tourists. Or at least try to. Just look at this discussion on chowhound [2]. Interesting comment: > Kyoaji is probably sick of rich foreigners trying to book via 5 star hotel concierges. Maybe change your strategy, and stay at a budget salaryman hotel and use…

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

[deleted]

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#32

Post by KGIII » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 3:36 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #27

rjzzleep wrote: post #4

He's not the only one. [1][3] In fact some places like Kyo Aji from Kenichiro Nishi - who is apparently a very good and famous chef - go as far as ban michelin tourists. Or at least try to. Just look at this discussion on chowhound [2]. Interesting comment: > Kyoaji is probably sick of rich foreigners trying to book via 5 star hotel concierges. Maybe change your strategy, and stay at a budget salaryman hotel and use…

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

> nobody's showing up anywhere

I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no?

It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors.

People have committed suicide due to the pressures involved in trying to get onto the list and to maintain, or increase, their stars. Failure is difficult and may even result in financial ruin, as if restaurants weren't already inherently risky.

So, I'm not sure that it is so much xenophobic as it is simply not wishing to be so publicly judged and/or pressured.

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#33

Post by KGIII » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 3:39 AM UTC

panopticon wrote: post #15

sidlls wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what Michelin's standards are or how they decide whether and at what level to put a chef in their ratings. However, it seems to me he believes that his entire Michelin rating might hinge on one inspection. That's a lot of pressure given all the things that can go wrong in a given preparation. Perhaps he feels it's a bit like being required to write code that compiles with no logic bugs on (more or less)…

At the risk of sounding flippant, isn't that just another way of saying he wants to relax his standards?

Or, maybe, live up to a set of different standards and not be pressured to conform to his past set of ideals or those ideals that make for good ratings.

It may be different standards, not necessarily relaxed standards. I think we can give him the benefit of doubt.

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#34

Post by ue_ » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 3:45 AM UTC

KGIII wrote: post #32

ue_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

> nobody's showing up anywhere I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors. People have committed suicide due to the pressure…

>I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no?

Sorry, I was under the impression that he's talking about the Michelin rating people showing up and telling them how good or bad his food is rather than simply visiting and writing a guide which contains his restaurant. I can understand the pressure of being on the list and maintaining one's position, but there's no reason why he couldn't let that slip; being lower on the list is better than not being on the list at all in terms of prestige, so he obviously doesn't care much what a "foreign" guide writes about him.

The idea that only Japanese people can judge Japanese food seems to me very xenophobic; if that wasn't his intention then he should have spoken in general rather than targeting "foreigners".

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#35

Post by KGIII » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 3:55 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #34

KGIII wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody's showing up anywhere I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors. People have committed suicide due to the pressure…

>I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? Sorry, I was under the impression that he's talking about the Michelin rating people showing up and telling them how good or bad his food is rather than simply visiting and writing a guide which contains his restaurant. I can understand the pressure of being on the list and maintaining one's position, but there's…

English may not be his native language and I'm just speculating. To me, it read more about the pressures exerted and the desire to not have to conform to an ideal presented by people who aren't members of the same culture.

I'm not sure that qualifies as xenophobic, or even a bad thing. Should a Mexican restaurant be pressured into serving food that is more acceptable to the Canadian palate? (Pressured, not forced.)

From what I've read, and a documentary, it's pretty high stress to meet the expectations and to do things in a certain manner. I can understand the desire to get out from under that. By foreigners, it may mean, 'not my usual customers.'

So, I'm not sure if that's really xenophobic. I'm not seeing any fear involved, just displeasure about external pressures.

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#36

Post by ebfd » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 4:06 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #34

KGIII wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody's showing up anywhere I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? It does read a bit xenophobic, but it might be a pressure thing more than a nationality thing. People try to put pressure on those establishments. Sometimes, it's the chefs themselves who put the pressure on, sometimes it is visitors. People have committed suicide due to the pressure…

>I suspect they are? I mean, if they weren't showing up then the restaurant would be out of business, no? Sorry, I was under the impression that he's talking about the Michelin rating people showing up and telling them how good or bad his food is rather than simply visiting and writing a guide which contains his restaurant. I can understand the pressure of being on the list and maintaining one's position, but there's…

Maybe he believes that Japanese people are better judges on average. Traits about populations that concern <100% of their members can still hold utility.

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#37

Post by chongli » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 4:20 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #27

rjzzleep wrote: post #4

He's not the only one. [1][3] In fact some places like Kyo Aji from Kenichiro Nishi - who is apparently a very good and famous chef - go as far as ban michelin tourists. Or at least try to. Just look at this discussion on chowhound [2]. Interesting comment: > Kyoaji is probably sick of rich foreigners trying to book via 5 star hotel concierges. Maybe change your strategy, and stay at a budget salaryman hotel and use…

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

xenophobic undertone

It's another facet of gentrification. A restaurant owner may really love having a small, local clientele of regulars and a very good atmosphere due to that fact. Then one day he gets awarded a Michelin star and suddenly thousands of tourists descend on his place and swamp it with unwanted business. Is it xenophobic to suggest he might prefer to go back to the previous situation?

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#38

Post by kore » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 4:28 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #27

rjzzleep wrote: post #4

He's not the only one. [1][3] In fact some places like Kyo Aji from Kenichiro Nishi - who is apparently a very good and famous chef - go as far as ban michelin tourists. Or at least try to. Just look at this discussion on chowhound [2]. Interesting comment: > Kyoaji is probably sick of rich foreigners trying to book via 5 star hotel concierges. Maybe change your strategy, and stay at a budget salaryman hotel and use…

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

Since that article, Kadowaki's actually now listed as a 2-star Michelin restaurant.

Don't know what's happened since then, but I remember the name because it's the only Michelin restaurant I've ever dined in. Small world coming across it on HN!

For what it's worth, the staff was pleasant and welcomed us as foreigners, asking where we were visiting from. Kadowaki came by at the end of the meal to put the finishing touches on his signature dish, and was just as welcoming. Pricey though!

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#39

Post by beambot » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 4:55 AM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #27

rjzzleep wrote: post #4

He's not the only one. [1][3] In fact some places like Kyo Aji from Kenichiro Nishi - who is apparently a very good and famous chef - go as far as ban michelin tourists. Or at least try to. Just look at this discussion on chowhound [2]. Interesting comment: > Kyoaji is probably sick of rich foreigners trying to book via 5 star hotel concierges. Maybe change your strategy, and stay at a budget salaryman hotel and use…

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

There are documentaries about the uber-rich foodies who treat these restaurants like Pokemon. Given the personalities involved, it doesn't surprise me that some chefs should actively want to shun them.

Re: French chef asks to be stripped of three Michelin stars

#40

Post by kodfodrasz » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 5:08 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #37

ue_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Japanese food was created here, and only Japanese know it,” Mr. Kadowaki said in an interview. “How can a bunch of foreigners show up and tell us what is good or bad?” I feel like this has a xenophobic undertone to it; nobody's showing up anywhere, it's a guide which attempts to find good restaurants and food around the globe; what makes the Japanese in his view so specially qualified to judge the food? If the food…

xenophobic undertone It's another facet of gentrification. A restaurant owner may really love having a small, local clientele of regulars and a very good atmosphere due to that fact. Then one day he gets awarded a Michelin star and suddenly thousands of tourists descend on his place and swamp it with unwanted business. Is it xenophobic to suggest he might prefer to go back to the previous situation?

Also, if it was xenophobic. So what? Doesn't a businessman have the right to choose who to do business with?

I believe free trade is a good thing, but seems like many americans mistook free trade for gunboat diplomacy (see opening of Japan). In my understanding free trade is free as in free will: both parties voluntarily take part in the exchange of goods and services.

Also one can be patriotic in a way that he/she (no xe!) wants to preserve the cultural heritage, which is not only buildings and artifacts in museums, but also customs. Customs can be preserved by people sustaining them by continuously acting according to them. Local customs can be ruined pretty quickly via a huge influx of tourists.

Example: In my younger day I could see elderly people sitting in the small parks around playgrounds and children playing at some parts of the city. Now in these parts of the city what I can see is playgrounds have been closed. Public places have been closed, no elderly talking, playing chess on a summer afternoon. Instead there are "party tourists" littering, being loud and drunk an sometimes acting atrociously as early as 2pm on weekdays. A local custom (socialization of the locals) has been wiped by tourism. Slowly locals are freeing the "party district".

I can understand why one wants to avoid such situation (even as Michelin -tourists are not this troublesome, but starts a trend, which can even lead here). Is this xenophobic, then be so. I understand why people want to be xenophobic then.