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Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

independent.co.uk

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Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a problem if it wasn't trivially easy to block them. Otherwise, people being horrible really isn't your problem unless you train yourself to be very conscious of their opinions and to care deeply about them. That's the only way their opinion can get to you. Of course, that training doesn't have to be conscious and a great many people have inadvertently trained themselves to be sensitive to the opinions…

> Otherwise, people being horrible really isn't your problem unless you train yourself to be very conscious of their opinions and to care deeply about them. Humans are social animals. We care about what others think by default. Maybe you're an outlier, that's nice for you, but please don't think your experience is normal.

That is true, and it is a problem that each and every single human being has had to deal with since the beginning of time. It was worse in the past, actually, because the people saying mean things to you were right there and could actually DO things to you in addition to simply espousing ideas or opinions you found offensive! That's why people always taught children to respond with "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

That's not an absolution of bullies, and people who interpret it that way are morons. It's a mantra. It is to teach a child that THEY have the control over whether those words hurt them, not the person saying them. By default, yes, we have mirror neurons and we are profoundly social. It evolved to perfectly fit our society of nomads travelling in tribes across a plentiful landscape, where anyone deigning to take control of others would simply be left behind as the tribe walks over the next hill. Wait, we don't LIVE in that type of society any longer. Which makes those evolutionary traits sub-optimal at best and downright dangerous at worst. I'd go with dangerous given the negative impact of cortisol and other stress hormones. Keeping them in check is a burden the modern world puts on us all.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#102
post #75
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is one of those really hard social problems. A completely open web will be inundated with spam, pornography and propaganda. A completely gated web will only serve the gatekeepers. What really solves the problem is a 3rd party gatekeeper composed of "Council of Wise People".(henceforth referred to as gatekeepers). Movie rating board is an example. This leads to the age old question, "Who will monitor the ga…

You create 2 sets of gatekeepers who have the job of not only gatekeeping, but also taking the other group of gatekeepers down. Keep both honest.

You mean like Republicans vs Democrats?

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of a monk on the vanguard of the ideological attacks on Muslims, just to be clear.

I never thought I'd see the day where a Buddhist monk in robes is calling for the genocide of "Muslim vermin". (I don't think he literally said "vermin", but that's basically the analogies he's using.)

So imagine what actually drove them to that.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If forced to label myself as a human being, I would probably go to 'Pervert Philosopher'. I am a big believer in the utter critical importance of facing the "ugly" side of our human nature and dealing with it openly. It disgusts me, and I see it as immoral, that so many platforms wish to scrub the primary conduits through which modern human culture is both formed and transmitted of the 'human' element. Humans cuss an…

Thank you for your interesting and raw thoughts :) I too agree that the internet should be as free as water. Interestingly, there are movements that attempt to do that, but I think that government and corporation forces are quite good at driving a specific type of usage and penalizing another. So I think that will continue to be a problem. If enough people wanted to rise up, build their own fiber, run their own mesh…

Each utility fought a real battle when being initially established. It's very interesting history. For awhile I was researching it pretty deeply, interested in whether my ideas were total lunacy or what and possibly considering writing a book about it. I started off with the question: What criteria was used to say 'yes, water should be a utility, natural gas should be a utility, electricity should be a utility, telephone should be a utility', etc? How did that actually come about?

The question weighed for those things in the past turned out to be a fairly simple one, but which can be tricky to approach honestly and fairly for both sides: Would the benefit to society be greater than the damage caused by the elimination of competition in that space? To judge it correctly, one does have to attempt to quantify and judge how much damage would be done by eliminating the competitive aspect, because that would have to happen. Then one lines up the benefits society would garner by having it available ubiquitously and cheaply.

Personally I think the call isn't even close. The Internet meets the requirement of providing more social benefit by being cheap and everywhere by miles, much moreso than some of the other public utilities even do. (First off the bat, you can get rid of the phone utility. And the TV quasi-utility.) You can actually close a gigantic number of government offices and let their employees work from home. You can tell people to 'do it online'. You can't DO that, ever, in law if universal access is not guaranteed and it remains a luxury. Small businesses would get huge with it, no longer chained to a "business class" connection that bleeds them dry and hosting companies that manipulate them, they could just run their servers themselves on their own lines. There are all sorts of other benefits to having a guaranteed-present communications network which is not a luxury but a basic service.

And sure, the companies like Comcast that originally made their money from distributing media and then got into the ISP market to try to stop or destroy or control it to prevent the threat to their cash cow will go nuts about it. Their death warrant was signed the day the Internet came about. Distribution is a solved problem. Sure 50 years ago if I made a video and wanted to show it to 10,000 people I'd HAVE to sign up with a distributor and beg and scrape and HOPE they only skimmed 99% of the value out of that transaction. Distribution was flat-out the single most valuable economic activity and dominated the entire global economy from the advent of factories (it made factories possible) up until the Internet came along (computers helped). Now distribution is something a clever 12 year old can do in their spare time for fun. And most importantly, the 12 year old will do it faster, better, and at a radically lower cost compared to the established gigantic players who feel entitled to still be kings. They love capitalism and the free market until they're stuck holding a huge order of buggy whips and watching everyone driving around in automobiles. Suddenly they wish their lobbyists could get the government to require cars to have a buggy whip installed before they'd start up.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#105
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is one of those really hard social problems. A completely open web will be inundated with spam, pornography and propaganda. A completely gated web will only serve the gatekeepers. What really solves the problem is a 3rd party gatekeeper composed of "Council of Wise People".(henceforth referred to as gatekeepers). Movie rating board is an example. This leads to the age old question, "Who will monitor the ga…

Why is it you are alive? I mean, it would be trivially easy for anyone to kill you. You have to work to keep yourself alive. Some random person walking up to you on the street and pushing a little blade into your neck is all it would take to end you. Or start your house on fire while you're asleep. Or a million other things. But... you're alive. Laws don't stop crime, they can only punish it afterwards. Deterrence do…

> Laws don't stop crime (..)

is this statement based on some kind of study?

> Deterrence doesn't work, there are still plenty of crimes (..)

not terribly convincing... 'crimes happen' doesn't seem to sufficiently demonstrate that 'deterrence doesn't work'.

> Humans aren't as bad as you might be tempted to think

some aren't. some are much, much worse.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it you are alive? I mean, it would be trivially easy for anyone to kill you. You have to work to keep yourself alive. Some random person walking up to you on the street and pushing a little blade into your neck is all it would take to end you. Or start your house on fire while you're asleep. Or a million other things. But... you're alive. Laws don't stop crime, they can only punish it afterwards. Deterrence do…

I'm down with the whole "lets be optimistic and say humans are good" mindset, and of course MOST people are not interested in causing serious harm to there peers. But the mere fact that someone hasn't put themselves at extreme risk to kill you isn't very convincing in the face of societies large scale corruption. Humans, at least when it comes to producing sustainable organizations that behave altruistically, indeed…

What extreme risk? I mean, I'm a skinny weakling. I've pretty much always been a skinny weakling. I've had threats, but always been able to talk my way out of things. I don't really base my personal view so much on the fact I've never been in a fight, or that I live in the world with the lowest incidence of violent crime since the advent of agriculture or any of those sorts of things. I base it on neuroscience. We're built to NOT hurt people. We have to be pushed pretty far to be made to hurt people, and even then we usually can't go through with it. Mirror neurons work. They reflect what you do to others on yourself, and it doesn't feel good at all. If you're trained to kill on reflex, as soldiers are, and your body goes ahead and does it before your conscious mind can catch up... once it does, that causes a neurological cataclysm that manifests as PTSD and can take years to recover from.

The 'producing sustainable organizations' changes the topic completely. Human beings, as individuals, are absolutely and fundamentally different from human beings as a group. America went to war with Vietnam in the 1960s. That is a true statement. Even though there were tons of protestors who had no desire to fight Vietnam. Talking about groups and about people as individuals is starkly and completely different. People in groups can be easily driven by 'mob mentality', especially if they have been trained to be especially susceptible to this by things like team-based competitive sports in their formative years. Acting in a group 'disables' a great deal of a persons individual moral code. The same is true of people in a position of subservience. "I was just following orders" makes sense to the person pulling the trigger because they earnestly feel no moral responsibility for their actions - it's how they protect themselves. It's a dangerous defense that needs to be consciously acknowledged and resisted by all people. Failure to do so makes people very dangerous. And it is not an easy thing to do at all.

Organizations also pretty much always form to facilitate some form of control. And control is poison. It is inherently harmful, regardless of either the aim, intention, or end result of it. It is also, I think, cumulative. There's no one law that turns a country into an oppressive regime, it's an accumulation. And it doesn't matter if every single one of the restrictions is "for your own good". Unless the 'good' produced by the restriction outweighs the cumulative damage it does by inflicting the control upon each individual in the society, it is overall harmful. People often ask ridiculous questions like "Why should X be legal?" which pre-supposes that everything ought to be illegal unless there is a 'good reason' to permit it. They ask "Why should you be allowed to X?" as if every action a person takes needs to be justified as beneficial in some meaningful way. It's a very dangerous mindset that has undone many societies in the past. And control poisons not just the people being controlled, but those dishing it out as well. I'm uncertain whether their damage is greater than the damage to those controlled or not. As far as I know it's not been studied and that sort of thing would be hard to quantify. I mean, prison guards are killing themselves in massive numbers and always have for a reason, obviously, but the prisoners are tattooing themselves, joining gangs, and fighting as well, so which is having more harm inflicted? They're both responding in pretty extreme ways (ways identical to how people in oppressive nations, in oppressive cults, in high-control prisons everywhere, and increasingly in American high schools respond).

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#107
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it you are alive? I mean, it would be trivially easy for anyone to kill you. You have to work to keep yourself alive. Some random person walking up to you on the street and pushing a little blade into your neck is all it would take to end you. Or start your house on fire while you're asleep. Or a million other things. But... you're alive. Laws don't stop crime, they can only punish it afterwards. Deterrence do…

> Laws don't stop crime (..) is this statement based on some kind of study? > Deterrence doesn't work, there are still plenty of crimes (..) not terribly convincing... 'crimes happen' doesn't seem to sufficiently demonstrate that 'deterrence doesn't work'. > Humans aren't as bad as you might be tempted to think some aren't. some are much, much worse.

>is this statement based on some kind of study?

It's based on the law. They punish crimes after they have been committed. Where is the law that doesn't say "if you murder, you go to jail" but instead sets things up so you physically can not murder?

>not terribly convincing... 'crimes happen' doesn't seem to sufficiently demonstrate that 'deterrence doesn't work

Yeah, the part you cut out is the important bit. Sure you could argue 'oh well people are willing to steal a pair of shoes because they only get punished with 3 days in jail so they make a value judgement' if that's what we were talking about. But it's not. I pointed out the case of extreme punishment, death, not even THAT being capable of preventing the simple stupid crimes like stealing a pair of shoes.

>some aren't. some are much, much worse.

'Some' are individuals. I was speaking of humans overall. They're two very different things. Individually humans are impossible to predict, in groups they're among the most predictable things around. 'America went to war with Vietnam in the 60s' is not false simply because there were a bunch of protestors that opposed it. A statement about a group is not a statement about all of the individuals within it, and language would be incapable of functioning if that was the standard you attempted to apply.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#108
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The force multiplier arithmetic of the internet changes this. Almost all people are fine, but some are not. It was only last week that we had some idiots put another bomb on a tube train, for example. On the internet, if you can attack once you can attack everywhere. If you could put a bomb on every train at once with ctrl-c ctrl-v, we'd probably all be dead. America has a mass shooting every week. If the real world…

Don't use the word 'force' when no force is involved. On the Internet, if you "attack", you send words or pictures. You send ideas. A bomb blows people apart. You do not have to, either intentionally or accidentally, train yourself to respond negatively to a bomb. A bomb blows you apart no matter who you are. An idea does not. Only you can control how you react to any given idea. And I don't think it's likely that if…

> Only you can control how you react to any given idea.

this is a bit simplistic. receiving information is a physiological process and not purely a cold and analytical affair. that's why a particularly vicious insult can drive some into a fit of violent irrational rage.

> And how common is it for them to drive it into a crowd and kill and injure people? Run the numbers. You're more likely to die from being hit by a meteor, so concern yourself with that instead.

there is a tremendous amount security work that contributes to this. many billions of dollars (possibly into the trillions, worldwide). a lot of dissuading machinery in legal and social systems.

however you quantify them, the dangers people face are not a simple consequence of unwilling perpetrators.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#109
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watched for a few minutes. "Muslims are like African Carp. They breed rapidly [... yadda yadda yadda ...] Our entire race has been suffering under the burden of this minority..." That's grade-A genocidal rhetoric he's deploying. Good for observing that evil can wear any kind of face. Not good for much else.

That quote sounds like the average Breitbart comment, actually.

It's nothing compared to what you see in the comment section of news sites in rainbow South Africa.

Re: Facebook is 'silencing' Rohingya Muslim reports of 'ethnic cleansing'

#110
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Laws don't stop crime (..) is this statement based on some kind of study? > Deterrence doesn't work, there are still plenty of crimes (..) not terribly convincing... 'crimes happen' doesn't seem to sufficiently demonstrate that 'deterrence doesn't work'. > Humans aren't as bad as you might be tempted to think some aren't. some are much, much worse.

>is this statement based on some kind of study? It's based on the law. They punish crimes after they have been committed. Where is the law that doesn't say "if you murder, you go to jail" but instead sets things up so you physically can not murder? >not terribly convincing... 'crimes happen' doesn't seem to sufficiently demonstrate that 'deterrence doesn't work Yeah, the part you cut out is the important bit. Sure yo…

> Where is the law that doesn't say "if you murder, you go to jail" but instead sets things up so you physically can not murder?

is the only way to prevent murder a physical impediment?

does talking an attacker out of their plans count as preventing a murder?

> I pointed out the case of extreme punishment, death, not even THAT being capable of preventing the simple stupid crimes like stealing a pair of shoes.

again, you seem to be suggesting that 'deterrence doesn't real' because crime still exists. it seems you're presenting deterrence as an all-or-nothing dichotomy.

> 'Some' are individuals. I was speaking of humans overall.

indeed, and that's the point. pointing to a vague generalization about humans doesn't keep your kids safe.

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