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Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

theamericanconservative.com

21–30 of 124 posts

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#21
I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished.

I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of course, I had long since left the Army and now it was some other bunch of soldiers sitting in a tent. When they pulled Hussein out of his spider hole, I was thrilled. Justice, right?

But Iraq didn't turn into a shining example of emerging democracy; it was a shit-show of tribal feuds, incompetence, waste, fraud and abuse that continued to kill decent American kids. The contemporary Iraqi WMDs -- the reason for our costly endeavor -- never really materialized (though their historical presence and usage against Kurds and Iranians was often downplayed). It became increasingly clear that all our involvement contributed to was a power vacuum in which something nastier could breed.

Afghanistan, a seemingly more focused war due to the Taliban's sheltering and support of al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11, at this point appears to be no more productive. Different tribes, different waste, fraud and abuse, different American kids killed so career politicians can check a box on their list of accomplishments.

While I still respect men & women who join the military, my disdain for the "warrior worship" culture that has become the norm has grown. When I returned from the Gulf in 1991, I was amazed by such goodwill and support for the military; it was, I believe, a collective reaction to the infamous reception Vietnam-era soldiers received upon coming home. I would not want to deprive returning troops of the same feel-good experience, but at the same time I've grown weary of almost seventeen years of "thank you for our service" and the obligatory shots of troops abroad watching the sportsball game du jour, the abuse of the term "hero", and this somehow normalized condition of young men and women being sent to shithole third-world countries "to keep America safe".

We're in the second decade of this madness, with no clear goals for victory or even to declare a statemate. As much as I love my country, at this point were there even a hint of a draft I would be the first to drive my teenage boys to the Canadian border -- a concept that would have astounded and enraged a younger me.

Amidst the author's pious wailing and gnashing of teeth, the question "where are today’s skeptical veterans?" is posed.

Well, here's one. And I'm far from alone. Most of us, I suspect, aren't vocal because of one simple reason: it will accomplish nothing.

As with other causes, such as the environment, drug legalization, investment in national infrastructure, additional funding for scientific research, our political class turns a deaf ear to the populace. We the little people have our designated role: fly the flag of Team Pepsi or Team Coke, pay our taxes, and become enraged at each other while the aristocracy does what they will.

We are largely jaded, and having assessed the impossibility of stopping the tide many of us merely do what we can to stay on higher ground and be cognizant of storm surges.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#22
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

"Sir, what are we really doing there?" Wading through the knee-deep shit and blood that is a political quagmire. But I can't imagine a man who is entrusted with inspiring people to go out and die for said quagmire is allowed to say that.

Did you ever see a historical chart showing the supply of heroin coming out of Afghanistan? It stopped in 2001 but ever since the USA got there it's been growing steadily. Heroin is a huge business with many dark and powerful players.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#23
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

I had a similar experience, except in the Army "Reserves", in Iraq, and asking my "stupid" question to our Major instead of a Lt. Col. My rank didn't survive the deployment, as I was attached to another unit at the time and asking questions put me high on his shit list. I guess I was lucky my home unit was kind enough to return the stripes before my inglorious departure a few after that deployment.

You are 100% right that folks who don't toe the line, don't make much past E4, although there are a few older NCO's who still maintain their integrity, and take care of their troops.

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "just" war, but I do know we were not fighting one, and the military we have today is an overpriced facade of what it claims to be.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#24

a decent article until it went political at the end - almost as a "BTW..." It failed to bring most of the wars (or "police actions") into the picture. Maybe because all of the 'major' conflicts prior to desert storm (C/WW1/2/K/V) were headed by the opposite political party than that mentioned. This is not to say other conflicts didn't happen under other parties as they obviously have. While the reasoning is sound ins…

You want to talk about war without talking about politics? And do you think the level of politics where war is decided really care which party is in power at the time?

no - war and politics are always going to be intermingled. The issue is that people (especially in today's climate) are polarized, emotionally blaming one 'side' or 'the other' when both are equally culpable.

My point is that this could have been a great article. The 'morality of war' is always something that should be talked about and debated, etc... but when one 'side' brings up 'such-and-such-party', that party's 'true followers' feel the need to defend them, and reply in kind and nothing is resolved, everyone else (who wanted an actual discussion) rolls their eyes and leaves with their shoulders slouched in defeat/despair/apathy.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interpreted what you quoted as a sly nod towards the Saudis, but maybe GP can clarify

Yeah that's what I was referring to. The whole Al Qaida thing is murky with CIA engineering and scapegoating. Maybe I sound like a conspiracy theorist, I don't know. They were a pretty convenient foil for us to invade a whole bunch of countries that we had no business invading.

It's hard to develop a coherent picture when operations are shrouded in secrecy and, in some cases, covered by multiple outright deceptions. Sometimes all you're left with is speculation, and I don't begrudge anyone who tries to makes sense of it. The trend towards leaking in the information age is turning many conspiracy theories into facts.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#26
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

I had a similar experience, except in the Army "Reserves", in Iraq, and asking my "stupid" question to our Major instead of a Lt. Col. My rank didn't survive the deployment, as I was attached to another unit at the time and asking questions put me high on his shit list. I guess I was lucky my home unit was kind enough to return the stripes before my inglorious departure a few after that deployment. You are 100% right…

Well spoken. I made it to Sergeant - I was actually promoted my last week, which was a surprise to everyone. Apparently I was the only person in the company to complete all the prerequisites for promotion that quarter. A nice "fuck you" on my way out the door.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#27
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

Afghanistan actually made more sense than Iraq since the Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda. So when 9/11 happened, it made sense to go after them. Iraq never made sense on the other hand.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to talk about war without talking about politics? And do you think the level of politics where war is decided really care which party is in power at the time?

no - war and politics are always going to be intermingled. The issue is that people (especially in today's climate) are polarized, emotionally blaming one 'side' or 'the other' when both are equally culpable. My point is that this could have been a great article. The 'morality of war' is always something that should be talked about and debated, etc... but when one 'side' brings up 'such-and-such-party', that party's…

I think the author purposefully included politics in there, he probably didnt care if it was a decent article or not because he was more or less expressing his views.

Sarcasm intended

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#29
post #12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the life of me, I can't understand the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan. They're not even the ones who attacked us on 9/11. The Afghan government at the time offered sanctuary to Al Qaeda, refusing to hand over its members after they had declared war on the U.S., attacked USS Cole, hijacked four civilian aircraft and crashed them into the World Trade CEnter & the Pentagon, killing thousands; the strate…

> the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan was to demonstrate to every country that shielding those who commit acts of war against the United States is itself an act of war against the United States — and that being in a state of war with the United States is an unhealthy condition. It demonstrated that doing anything other than saying "how high?" when asked to jump by the US is unhealthy—if an only if you don't…

I think that's a pretty good analysis.

Nothing is certain but IMO the whole Al Qaida narrative is questionable. Now, it looks like we're there for heavy metals / opium / contracting $$$ and to possibly block China from exerting further influence in the region.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#30

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

> that continued to kill decent American kids.

and decent Iraqis of all ages

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