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JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

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Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vue is the only glimmer of hope a JS project gave me for the last 5 years. I actually sent a donation the very first afternoon I started to read their doc, because I decided that even if I would not end up using it, I wanted the author to be supported for just existing in the universe. Of course I ended up using it anyway.

Out of curiosity, what did Vue do for you that React didn't? I've been writing React for three years now and I can't find a compelling reason to even try Vue out.

Nothing.

For me the selling points of Vue are:

- You don't need tooling to use it. You can use tooling, but you don't need any. It makes it freaking easy and fast to start a small project with Vue and increment on that. Webpack can wait.

- Vue doesn't force components on you. Since most of my "widgets" are not reusable anyway, I really loves this. I write components only when I need to, usually a dozen per projects.

- You don't have to pass state around using callbacks and props to make it works without a store. State is just an easy mutation away. I'm not facebook, most of my projects don't need a flux pattern, and having Russian dolls data passing shenanigans just so I can update my UI is a pain.

- Vue documentation is stellar. It's wonderful. Like a walk in the parc with a friend.

- Vue is so easy to start with. React took me a while to click. Vue took me 20 minutes. It's incredibly easy to train new people coming to your project. And as a professional trainer, the difference with students is just night and day.

- Vue is very, very efficient. The lib is so small. But yet it's faster than react.

- Vue has a lot of helpers that you can tell have been made by a pragmatic author. onclic.prevent and v-on:customevents are poetry to me.

- After after hours and hours of react, I still have to look at the docs. I still have surprises. With Vue, the surprises stopped after day 3.

- I hate JSX. Matter of taste of course. I like the Vue template language, but Vue can optionally use JSX if you prefer it.

- Some very vocal people in the React community are dishonest. They will tell you you can use react without tooling or JSX because technically you could. But technically is not pragmatically. Nobody would. And you are on your own if you try. I hate fan boyism. Compare to Vue: the author even has a comparative page of most frameworks with Vue. He co-wrote the react part with react authors to get it fair. That, I like.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#72
The last time I've really touched JavaScript is about a year ago, I'm just working with Python these days. Thinking back, I had 2/3 newsletters about JavaScript and whenever I've read them there was a headline "why X is better than Y", "Y has no chance against Z" "Good old X is better than Z,Y".

I was always feeling, that I'm missing out on something and that I needed to learn new things. Switching to python actually made writing code enjoyable again.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#73
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open-source maintainers should totally leverage this opportunity to make their projects sustainable. Sell your backports. Enterprises want them.

That actually sounds like an interesting business model. What form would the transaction take?

https://railslts.com/

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/06/17/if-your-business-uses-ra...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5893961

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#74
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open-source maintainers should totally leverage this opportunity to make their projects sustainable. Sell your backports. Enterprises want them.

That actually sounds like an interesting business model. What form would the transaction take?

"Here are the keys to a private artifact repo. We will update N major/minor/whatever versions."

I am low-key building a marketplace for this, because this really should exist. The problem, as a marketplace, is identifying projects both important enough that people will pay for it and aren't* already functionally owned by a company that has a vested interest in their own project management.

(Are you a maintainer who's interested in something like this? Are there projects you would pay for this for? I want to hear from you. com dot edropple at ed)

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#75
post #7

I don't think there's that big a problem with how many front-end frameworks there are, and the pace of development. I think the problem is people who feel they have to use the latest and greatest feature and they have to know all the frameworks. At my company we picked a stack and stuck with it. That happened to be React and Redux. I hear Angular 2 and Vue are really great frameworks but I feel under no pressure to r…

At my old workplace we had a few legacy Meteor projects that absolutely _nobody_ wanted to maintain. In addition to that we could not hire anyone who was both suitably qualified and excited enough to work on Meteor.

We still had to maintain them though as the clients had no money to what would effectively revamp the entire stack to something a lot more maintainable.

Working with a (relatively) unpopular & outdated framework seriously took its toll on both the quality and the developer passion. We had a few really talented people leave simply to avoid working on these projects.

Edit: To echo sixsence's sentiment: Our React & Redux projects have proven themselves to be very resilient over the past few years.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#76

But JS dev has never been fun. Web dev is fun because the browser is a freaking awesome plateform. However, it is _despite_ of JS. There's not a single characteristic of this language that makes it better than any other mainstream high level language out there. We use it because we have no reasonable alternative on the browser. It has always been a pain to use, requiring: - avoiding part of the language that is badly…

> - recreating basic features that you take for granted in any other tech like isolation, namespacing, primitive stlib features, etc.

It's not so bad now. The language is evolving and gaining these kind of features (modules, standard methods to manipulate data structures). Lodash is just like #include .

> - fight with the various implementations to find some code that will work for most of your customers.

Again this has gotten better over the years. We write vanilla ES5 code with Angular 1.4 and it pretty much just works in every browser. With transpilers it's even better.

> - use tooling to compensate any weakness you can. Remember the most popular projects in JS (coffee, tsx, jsx, babel, webpack, etc) are mostly projects allowing you... to avoid writing JS.

TypeScript and the various babel transforms generally give you a superset of JavaScript, not a different language. JSX lets you write more JavaScript, not less, compared to frameworks that have templating systems.

I'm a bit surprised at these comments if you're writing JavaScript today, for me it's much more accurate of the state of affairs 5-10 years ago.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#77
post #7

I don't think there's that big a problem with how many front-end frameworks there are, and the pace of development. I think the problem is people who feel they have to use the latest and greatest feature and they have to know all the frameworks. At my company we picked a stack and stuck with it. That happened to be React and Redux. I hear Angular 2 and Vue are really great frameworks but I feel under no pressure to r…

With all due respect, React and Redux are still "in" and one of those buzz word frameworks right now. Your sentiment would mean a lot more if you were still having success with something like Angular 1. You aren't proving you are resilient to changes by using one of the most current buzz-word filled frameworks out there for two years. The real test happens when your framework of choice truly becomes obsolete, like wi…

Is React still "in"? I thought the recent BSD+Patents furore had made it uncool, but perhaps this doesn't bother developers as much as I originally thought.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you should choose a frontend framework with a LTS (long-term support) program. (For example, Angular 4 or Ember.) You don't have to upgrade to the latest version of the framework, just the latest LTS version which will have all the relevant bug/security fixes. Only when the framework starts to drop support for the LTS version do you have to deal with upgrading and learning whatever new features they have…

Maybe it is worth to add that a LTS release in JS land isn't what non JS developers would expect. LTS releases with support for 6 months? Seriously?

6 months for v.4, then 1 year. Which is still absurdly short. That's not even long enough for sane, normal versioning (e.g. Python 2.6 through 2.6.9 was like 5+ years). These people are crazy.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#79
post #66
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open-source maintainers should totally leverage this opportunity to make their projects sustainable. Sell your backports. Enterprises want them.

I work at one such large org. We would pay good money for a 5 year support contract for a fixed version of a framework getting backported security (and maybe a few feature) updates.

Shoot me an email with details? Like I said in a sibling, this is a project I'm digging into. Email's in my profile.

Re: JavaScript development is not fun for me anymore

#80
I hate JavaScript with a passion, but 95% of that is fixed with TypeScript. But the thing that TypeScript can't fix isn't really related to JavaScript, but rather everything around it:

1) Build systems suck. Millions of plugins and adapters, opaque json configurations, silent errors, finicky and difficult optimizers, source maps upon source maps, shims everywhere, etc.

2) Browsers have unpredictable noncompliance with standards, HTML doesn't work well for user interfaces, CSS is obtuse, etc.

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