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What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

washingtonpost.com

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Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#181

Post by WalterBright »

blacksmythe wrote: post #169
WalterBright wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how they're measuring it. I attended Caltech in the 70s, and the percent who entered as freshman and graduated as seniors was much lower. You could see it just in the number of students at each level, it declined every year.

The Caltech graduation rate back then said to be on the order of 66%. The saying at Frosh camp was 'Look to your left. Look to your right. One of you is not going to graduate'.

66% sounds about right. People left for all sorts of reasons, not just flunking out.

I wonder what has changed since then to so drastically change the graduation rate.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#182

Post by seattleeng »

WalterBright wrote: post #108
thomasahle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when the grades given on assignments influence what goes on your final exam papers. At a university, only the final exam should count. This way you can give honest feedback, and the student doesn't feel obligated to point out every little mistake to try to make you change your decision. It also allows them to misunderstand things at first, but then 'get' it later. Of course universities don't like this…

At Caltech, the only thing that counted for your grade was the midterm and the final. The homework only mattered if a grade was on the knife edge of passing or failing. Students were free to do the homework or not, collaborate on it or not, as they saw fit. It was regarded as a learning tool that students could decide how best to make use of for themselves. I thought it worked rather well, although the high stakes fi…

Another point here that was true during my time: almost all exams were take home, open book. Some were even unlimited time, although that was much rarer. Generally though, time was not the constraint keeping you from completing the exam.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#183

Post by tehwebguy »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #162
tehwebguy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a scam it all is. How tragic that you TAs are apparently complicit. Edit: Thanks for the downvote but giving higher grades because it's more convenient than doing the right thing is... the wrong thing. Painful that at some point it felt like your (and many others') best choice but it was still wrong flat out. Hey maybe now you can "change the system from the inside!"

As you feel so strongly about this issue, I assume that you will not sit around and be complicit now that you are aware of the realities but instead will put in the hard work to marshall a campaign of change.

Should I have to be ready and willing to start a campaign every time I learn of something is unethical?

Am I not allowed to call out obviously unethical behavior without offering myself as tribute to correct it?

If I call you out for littering do I have to clean the whole planet?

Sorry this feels bad man, I don't think you are a dirtbag but I think you did a bad thing. Done plenty myself, my crosses to bear, but always turned out better when called out for it.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#184

Post by moretai »

quuquuquu wrote: post #177
Gibbon1 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just remember the difference between Stanford 30 years ago and San Jose State. At Stanford students that were failing a class or getting a grade that was too low would just drop it and retake it the next semester. At San Jose State you couldn't drop a class after the first two days. Stanford you could retake a class for a higher grade. SJSU, you could retake a class if the grade was lower than a C. But they'd avera…

That sounds like a hellacious place to attend school. That's like judging an engineer based on a blended average of their output, for 3 months, compared to Nikola Tesla. If you can't compete with him, sorry, it's gonna have to be a B-.

Yeah, is there a reason to grade on a curve? I don't understand the competition if it the point is to understand the material. There is no evidence that the real world operates on a meritocracy.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#185

Post by detaro »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #60
thomasahle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when the grades given on assignments influence what goes on your final exam papers. At a university, only the final exam should count. This way you can give honest feedback, and the student doesn't feel obligated to point out every little mistake to try to make you change your decision. It also allows them to misunderstand things at first, but then 'get' it later. Of course universities don't like this…

This is how it works in Germany. One exam at the end of the semester. Nothing else counts. Studying and finding motivation to study is the students responsibility. It's not perfect either, a bad performance on exam day might mean a bad grade even if you're good, but whatever, nobody cares about grades, anyway.

Not universally. Midterm exams, graded (regular) homework, graded projects, graded written reports, take-home exams, ... all exist.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#186

Post by Gibbon1 »

quuquuquu wrote: post #177
Gibbon1 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just remember the difference between Stanford 30 years ago and San Jose State. At Stanford students that were failing a class or getting a grade that was too low would just drop it and retake it the next semester. At San Jose State you couldn't drop a class after the first two days. Stanford you could retake a class for a higher grade. SJSU, you could retake a class if the grade was lower than a C. But they'd avera…

That sounds like a hellacious place to attend school. That's like judging an engineer based on a blended average of their output, for 3 months, compared to Nikola Tesla. If you can't compete with him, sorry, it's gonna have to be a B-.

The deal is when you grade on a curve a B- means something other than 'totally failed' or as an old instructor of mine said, back when I went to school a B was a good grade.

Also my mothers comment was if everyone does really really well on a test then it wasn't hard enough. The reverse is sort of true. If everyone does poorly then either the test test was too hard or the instructor failed to teach the material.

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#187

Post by quuquuquu »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #186
quuquuquu wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a hellacious place to attend school. That's like judging an engineer based on a blended average of their output, for 3 months, compared to Nikola Tesla. If you can't compete with him, sorry, it's gonna have to be a B-.

The deal is when you grade on a curve a B- means something other than 'totally failed' or as an old instructor of mine said, back when I went to school a B was a good grade. Also my mothers comment was if everyone does really really well on a test then it wasn't hard enough. The reverse is sort of true. If everyone does poorly then either the test test was too hard or the instructor failed to teach the material.

While I agree with you, the biased reader of my job application is looking for any reason to deny me :)

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#188

Post by akhilcacharya »

quuquuquu wrote: post #177
Gibbon1 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just remember the difference between Stanford 30 years ago and San Jose State. At Stanford students that were failing a class or getting a grade that was too low would just drop it and retake it the next semester. At San Jose State you couldn't drop a class after the first two days. Stanford you could retake a class for a higher grade. SJSU, you could retake a class if the grade was lower than a C. But they'd avera…

That sounds like a hellacious place to attend school. That's like judging an engineer based on a blended average of their output, for 3 months, compared to Nikola Tesla. If you can't compete with him, sorry, it's gonna have to be a B-.

And what happens after you graduate?

No matter if you got a 4.0, you're still never going to be graded the same as a Stanford grad*. It's set for life (unless you go to Stanford for a MS/PhD..)

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#189

Post by akhilcacharya »

Animats wrote: post #25

Harvard's graduation rate is 97.5%. Yale 97%. Princeton 96.9%. It's hard to flunk out of the Ivy League. Non Ivy League highly selective schools: Caltech 92.3%. Stanford 93%. MIT 92.2%. UC Berkeley: 90.9%. Low 90% success rate is normal there.

NC State (my school) - 74.3%.

sigh

Re: What the elite expect and receive from an Ivy League education

#190

Post by akhilcacharya »

nnfy wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #25

Harvard's graduation rate is 97.5%. Yale 97%. Princeton 96.9%. It's hard to flunk out of the Ivy League. Non Ivy League highly selective schools: Caltech 92.3%. Stanford 93%. MIT 92.2%. UC Berkeley: 90.9%. Low 90% success rate is normal there.

It could also be at least partly related to higher selectivity and more financial aid, and/or rich parents, that make school easier. But I dont actually know what goes on in ivy and off ivy league elite schools. Also consider that these may just be better run schools which also provide more and more useful assistance to students. Edit: I would like to add I think this article title is extremely clickbaity, and plays…

"Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won."

- Warren Buffet

[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/theres-b...

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