Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#301

Post by BatFastard » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

coleifer wrote: post #251

tetrep wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like gambling, alcohol, opiates, etc? Besides the wealth of extremely addictive substances (and activities) that are legal (some regulated), there's also at least one illegal drug that you're never going to be (chemically) addicted to: LSD. The "we're protecting you" logic behind making arbitrary drugs illegal is nonsense. It's even more weakened by the fact that at least a few of the illegal drugs with "no medi…

Alcohol is illegal here until you're 21, and then there are rules like no driving after drinking. We even tried to make it illegal but it wasn't tenable. Gambling is also illegal or very regulated in my state. And opiates are a controlled substance, you can't get them without an Rx. I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I'm talking about the ravages of drug addiction on society. It's not about protecting you , it'…

By far the most ravaging drug in the world is alcohol. So just like alcohol you put rules in place around drugs.

The reason drugs cost so much is because they are illegal, not because they cost a lot to produce or distribute. So we make the drug dealers rich, or we put them in prison, and this has a corrupting effect on police, border patrol, and who knows how many other organizations.

Plus we spend a ton of money, lives, and energy fighting something in a obviously losing fight. Isn't it better to educate, and help people with addictions? Or do you support the prison industry ;-)

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#302

Post by BatFastard » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

coleifer wrote: post #284

posixplz wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drugs do not lead to crime. Desperation and opportunity, the need to survive, with a lack of morality, all directly lead to crime. Drugs do not make people commit crimes. Emotions, those mental states, do however. What we need, as a country, society, and human race is to recognize the importance of treatment of the mind above all else. Reduce suffering. Sure, there will always be a degree of sadness in life, we shoul…

I don't see a lot of clinically depressed people sticking guns in people's faces. Nor do I think lack of morality has anything to do with addiction. Rather than treat the mind, I believe in treating the spirit.

Totally! Lets try to remove the hopelessness from peoples lives that makes them turn to drugs. We can put the whole drug fighting budget into mental health.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#303

Post by trissi1996 » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

fifnir wrote: post #282

coleifer wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's patently absurd. You're not likely to see a gamer out there ripping and robbing to support a habit. Do people get addicted to games? Food? Sex? Whatever? Yeah sure. But by far drugs lead to more crime.

And ILLEGAL drugs lead to crime much easier than legal one since you need to socialize with (sometimes) criminals to get your stuff.

Which you wouldn't have to if they were legal

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#304

Post by BatFastard » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #299

mgce wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but this isn't true at all. Alcohol is terribly addictive and destructive. Far more so than many illegal drugs. Its legality has nothing to do with these issues.

> Alcohol is terribly addictive and destructive. Far more so than many illegal drugs. That's probably true. I doubt it's more addictive than heroin though, which was why I used that as my example for the other end of the spectrum. If alcohol was as addictive as heroin, I'm quite confident it would be just as illegal.

One thing to consider here, is the addictiveness of many drugs has to do with the purity. If meth is over 60% pure, then the addiction rate goes WAY up. Legalization is one way of managing the purity.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#305

Post by Ajedi32 » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

amigoingtodie wrote: post #300

Ajedi32 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please point out the contradiction in my previous statement. As it stands, it seems to me that you're the one who's wong.

You claim drugs are illegal because they are addictive, then admit that alcohol and tobacco are addictive, yet not illegal. Furthermore, marijuana is classified as a Schedule 1 drug by the DEA, making it illegal at the federal level (no known medical uses), which based on your reasoning, would indicate it to be addictive. Yet, prescription opiates, which people are overdosing daily, is legal. And, you spelled 'wrong'…

That's a needlessly pedantic interpretation of my comment. As I clearly explained with my comparison between alcohol and heroin, the point is it's a matter of degree. Less addictive substances are less likely to be banned, whereas more addictive substances are more likely to be banned. That's why tobacco isn't banned, but heroin is. I would have thought that was obvious to everyone. Apparently not.

(And yes, obviously the laws aren't entirely consistent on this. They should be, but they aren't. That's not a valid refutation of my main point.)

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#306

Post by Ajedi32 » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

BatFastard wrote: post #304

Ajedi32 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alcohol is terribly addictive and destructive. Far more so than many illegal drugs. That's probably true. I doubt it's more addictive than heroin though, which was why I used that as my example for the other end of the spectrum. If alcohol was as addictive as heroin, I'm quite confident it would be just as illegal.

One thing to consider here, is the addictiveness of many drugs has to do with the purity. If meth is over 60% pure, then the addiction rate goes WAY up. Legalization is one way of managing the purity.

Maybe. Though if you ban meth that's >60% pure but allow meth <60% pure, really all you're doing is drawing the line on what is allowed and what isn't in a slightly different location. The linked article seems to be arguing that all drugs should be legal, regardless of how addictive they are or are not.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#307

Post by jliptzin » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 3:55 PM UTC

watty wrote: post #267

stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles, car break ins or OD'ing? As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable source of income. All gun battles aren't over drugs, and would still occur. And not all overdoses are caused by tainted drugs.

If you imagine a world where alcohol is illegal and replace every instance of drugs in your comment with alcohol, I think you could begin to understand how legalizing the distribution of drugs - just like alcohol - would solve a lot of problems.

How often do you hear about gun battles over alcohol?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#308

Post by tertius » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

pitaj wrote: post #289

tertius wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do we really want to regulate self-harm? In the worst cases we do: Euthanasia. Drinking under 21: We do. Marijuana use under 25: We should.

I don't. I think drinking age should be 18, and kids should be allowed to drink with their parents. I think marijuana should be the same way. I think assisted suicide should be allowed (euthanasia is different). I think every drug, even prescription medicines, should be totally legal to possess, distribute, sell, and buy.

Why should we limit it by age?

Also, you say that "I think x,y,z." But you do not say why. Do you have some expertise that informs your decision on safety or is your opinion purely philosophical (based on personal freedom or even Darwin Awards)?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#309

Post by Nursie » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #279

Nursie wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I don't understand - why would cheap/free drugs prevent gun battles No profit to fight over >> car break ins No need to find hundreds of dollars a day to support the habit >> or OD'ing? Known quantities of known substances can help people avoid OD from either the wrong thing (fentanyl lately) or unexpected purity. >> As far as I'm aware, junkies still need money to eat/sleep/drink and very few have a reliable sour…

people gamble their money away and its plenty legal. The free market won't solve everything. I also have a bit of a hard time imagining that someone having even easier access to, say, meth will thus be able to hold onto a job more easily. Personally I can't show up drunk to work. Though I agree with things like gang violence, I do worry about the effects on public health. Cigarettes and alcohol mess up society a lot…

I'm not claiming it's going to be 100% solution, only that it would be much better, and cut out some of the profit motives at the gang level, and need for vast amounts of cash at the addict level.

>> I also have a bit of a hard time imagining that someone having even easier access to, say, meth will thus be able to hold onto a job more easily. Personally I can't show up drunk to work

Me neither. And I honestly don't know how this stuff might apply to a substance like meth.

I know that studies tend to show that when opiate addicts are given easy and cheap/free access to maintenance doses and counselling, they have a much easier time returning to something like a normal life, and many can hold down jobs while either continuing the maintenance indefinitely or slowly tapering. The constant search for money and the insecurity about the next dose both make the effects of the addiction on their lives much, much worse. And it's not like heroin is all that expensive to make.

This isn't, as I said above, necessarily an argument for a totally free market in heroin, but it is to show that a different approach may reduce the harm to the individual and reduce the harm done to society by both those individuals and the black market profit-making organisation above them. Not to mention the hell that gets rained on producer-countries.

>> Cigarettes and alcohol mess up society a lot already

Objectively, scientifically, these are two of the worst and most harmful drugs we know of.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#310

Post by pstuart » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #272

fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

> Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Honestly, until the people in power start saying this stuff, nothing seems likely to happen. We've had a parade of experts, medical groups, police commissioners (in the UK), and ex-politicians all calling for change, but the people actually in power are either too set in their ways or too scared to rock the…

It's not just the people in power, it's the people themselves. Most of the citizenry have been brainwashed that "drugs are bad, m'kay?".

A majority now think that cannabis should be legal, but harder drugs should still be illegal to "protect us". This is somewhat understandable in that there are serious problems with drug use (it killed my brother), but we need education to show that the cure is worse than the disease.