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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#181

Post by drzaiusapelord »

groby_b wrote: post #158
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

Let's assume we actually get 50 Virginia class submarines (whims of Congress, and all that). Let's assume we need on average 3 controllers per year. That's a total of 5,000 XBox controller. At $20 a piece, the pentagon has now spent $10,000. This is not what in military spending passes for excess $ :) Yes, the numbers might be somewhat off, and there's storage cost, but really - we're talking Pentagon here. The place…

Not to mention making a controller would be trivial for a DoD contractor. I feel like some people in this thread want it both ways. If they see a contractor reinventing the wheel by making a custom xbox-like controller for god knows how much money they'll get criticized. If the DoD buys off-the-shelf parts then they'll get criticized as well.

I think when its come to HIDs like controllers or keyboards, off the shelf is fine. We can have the exact same conversation for Dell keyboards or 3rd party keyboards and mice.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#183

Post by throwawayjava »

jsjohnst wrote: post #174
jerf wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I'd point out is that the only relevant objections are things that are true about the XBox controller that aren't true about all the alternatives. One-off bespoke custom hardware at dozens of thousands of dollars a pop are not necessarily going to be better supported at these time scales, because even if you sign an iron-clad contract with an entity to do whatever maintenance you could dream up, they still…

Responding "the same problem exists with the custom hardware" isn't what everyone is replying with. Instead they keep going with the trope that it's an open standard and not realizing the example given was an open standard 33 years ago. Further more, I agree with your parenthetical that the malware angle is the more important argument. I disagree that it's a solveable problem though, but I feel the Xbox controller is…

This is an interesting debate, but I think it misses the most important point: cost.

The Navy can buy thousands of Xbox controllers for the cost of even a single bespoke controller. The US has on the order of 100 submarines. Replacement controllers for the lifetime of each submarine -- even multiplied by 10 -- is a hilariously small cost compared to the alternatives.

So buy 1,000+ Xbox controllers and keep them in a warehouse. Problem solved.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#185

Post by DiThi »

christophilus wrote: post #159
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

To your second point, these things are manifactured in China. What's to prevent them from adding tracking devices or backdoors to these if they realize they're going into US military ships?

Both points are already solved if they have already bought a lifetime supply of controllers, which as a sibling comment says, it's not far fetched.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#186

Post by benji-york »

logfromblammo wrote: post #154
LibertyBeta wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, but I think we can work around them. 1) As others have said xinput is pervasive as this point. If the Xbox 360 controller becomes hard to source then I'm sure a replacement xinput derived device will still be around. If not, it's a well documented standard and new devices can be made. 2) This leans on my first response. Xinput is the winner here, not the Xbox controller. If after testing they can't harde…

The consumer hardware only needs to last 20 years. After that, the Navy can surely make their own, as any patents run out. The Navy will need to write their own firmware anyway.

The US government has excluded itself (and its contractors) from being liable for patent infringement. See http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=28... for details.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#187

Post by antihero »

mysterydip wrote: post #98
c0m0 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

A company could buy the schematics and manufacture their own to Navy spec.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#188

Post by stordoff »

snuxoll wrote: post #170
unsigner wrote: post #41

The Xbox 360 wired controller is a great piece of kit, easily the best controller ever as a balance of price, reliability, and simplicity of use - the API has literally two functions, "what buttons are pressed" and "set vibration to X". The initial Xbox One controllers were a clear regression, although the recent Xbox One X are much better again. However, for use cases such as the submarine in TFA, wireless is a liab…

The Xbox One controllers send data over the USB cable when plugged in. You could make the argument that the USB cable could get pulled out of the controller, but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as easy to pull out with a good yank anyway.

> but the Xbox 360 wired models have the breakaway which is just as easy to pull out with a good yank anyway

If that became an issue, you could put duct tape around the breakaway to hold it in place. More difficult with a micro USB connection.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#189

Post by alexasmyths »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #79
kobeya wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've said why it is expensive. Not why it needs to be expensive.

That's literally a salary of 2 upper-grade engineers for a year (for a piece). There's literally _no way_ it had been done in the most efficient manner.

Though there is a lot of bureaucracy, you'd be surprised at how much work it is.

Consider how much a massive 'clean room' costs to operate.

Consider how much gear it takes to simulate the operation of massive robot arm in a 0G environment, when we live in a 1G environment.

Consider what happens when a 1 ton arm, attached to a 20 ton structure, applies toque to a 1/2 ton satellite... when the satellite is moving ...

Consider how much it costs to send 4 Engineers, a PM and a Bus Dev to Japan for three weeks for talks with Japanese Space Agency? Several times?

Consider the lawyers bill - Japanese, Canadian and American ones. Translators. Insurance estimates. Liabilities.

FYI - did you know that every single thing that goes into space is tracked? Every single screw had an ID number. It's original manufacturer, shipping, the date it was put on the station, by whom, when it was removed - etc etc. Every goddam screw :).

Now think of how much software and admin is needed to track all that.

And now consider that if one single manager, at one single subcontractor opens an 'issue report' anywhere in the world - that the 'countdown' for a shuttle launch was postponed? (Happened to my boss, opened a tiny change request on Admin Software in Toronto - went for lunch - Shuttle countdown froze, panic and hilarity ensue). And the overhead costs associated with that.

Space is expensive, especially 'manned space'.

Vert complex, one-of-a-kind system - where nothing is allowed to go wrong.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#190

Post by tomcam »

newman8r wrote: post #99
tomcam wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, can you elaborate on how you employ it and what you think it did specifically to help?

I just posted a slightly more detailed response in this thread related to the layout I use. In terms of how I think it helped: for ergonomics/back pain relief: I tend to sit up with a lot better posture now rather than 'reaching out to the right' where the traditional mouse used to be. Over time, I'd developed some minor right side back pain and I stretched a lot and attempted better posture. It only helped so much.…

Your posts are going to help people. Thank you.
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