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Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

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Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#141
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia 5kw is extremely common (20 250 watt panels) - out of pocket it's ~$5000 AUD. Now that 280 watt panels are becoming common, up to 7kw is a "standard" install.

But you need three phase to go beyond 5kw if I understand correctly

I think you have to get permission to ensure that not too many people in your immediate area have over 5kw, otherwise the grid in that area might not be able to handle so much being pushed back in without upgrades.

I don't know about three phase.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida has strong "castle doctrine" and "stand your ground" laws. If you can convince a jury you were afraid, you can do pretty much anything you want on your own property.

I understand that. But if you're so fearful that you think a code inspector is there to harm you, you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Instead you should seek medical care.

What if code inspector isn't there to harm you, but you see no reason to allow them on premises?

I don't see why one would have to deal with spurious/frivolous visits from officials without their own request.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#143
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the title is right in spirit. The law forbids you to use power from your own solar panels if the grid is offline. This is a nonsense requirement. Also the law requires you to use the same inhouse wiring as the grid for power from the solar panels. Why should anyone care about how you wire your own home, as long as your interface with the outside world is according to spec?

The future buyer of your home would like to ensure the safety and correctness of the wiring. The future buyer also needs to know what the limits of the system are, so that they don't accidentally overload it, and if it is overloaded that it performs appropriately (i.e. stop instead of catching fire). A future buyer may, thinking the house is to code, attempt to connect the house to the grid. If it is not wired approp…

The requirement to use the same wiring precludes the home owner from having an additional low-volate wiring in the house.

Most modern devices use low voltage nowadays, check what any of the power supply units for your laptop, phone, etc output to the device.

Low-volate is less dangerous, and international regulations (IEC 60449) reflect that. I'm not an expert, but it is likely that besides the law discussed here, such wiring would be legal even without approval. It definitely is in Germany, and to say the least, we like regulations.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#144
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the title is right in spirit. The law forbids you to use power from your own solar panels if the grid is offline. This is a nonsense requirement. Also the law requires you to use the same inhouse wiring as the grid for power from the solar panels. Why should anyone care about how you wire your own home, as long as your interface with the outside world is according to spec?

It doesn't sound like nonsense to me. It could definitely be dangerous to feed high voltages back into the powered-down grid. And your home isn't your home forever. One day you will die and someone will inherit your shoddy home grid system. Electrical wiring regulations exist for a reason.

> It could definitely be dangerous to feed high voltages back into the powered-down grid.

I said as long as the interface is according to spec. There are effective mechanisms to prevent this kind of feedback.

> shoddy home grid system

Then have an electrical engineer review and approve it. Still no reason to forbid it.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#145

This seems to be straight from a dystopian movie or book I'm not sure it isn't a joke. Is the "get off my lawn" a thing of the past in US? What business have US gov, or anybody else for that matter, to do with what I do on my property?

Most states wont even allow you to collect your own rain water to drink it.

Because it screws with the surrounding environment if you do it incorrectly? Sometimes people forget externalities are a thing!

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#146
Since the original, hyperbolic article is no longer linked, This post is to give some technical background on home electrical systems in the US for understanding of the underlying considerations of how secondary home power sources should operate. First two points of context:

1. The United States does not have a uniform electrical code, but instead has a document called the National Electrical Code (NEC) published regularly by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) as NFPA 70. The most current version of the code is from 2017. Looking inside out, the NEC stops at the main electrical service input to e.g. a house, and from that point a different code, called the NESC, takes over.

2. There are a wide range of variants of the NEC that are codified to force of law throughout the United States. And states/cities/municipalities can exempt and/or add to their preferred version. Here inside City of Atlanta boundary, for instance, we are on the 2014 version of the code. But even then there are different versions of the code in force at different locations in the multiplex.

---

With the caveats that not everything below is 100% uniform everywhere in the US, here is how wiring in US homes generally works. There's a few steps here, but it should all make sense:

A. There is a stepdown transformer with a "center tapped" secondary configuration. The end result of this is that homes are fed with two energized conductors ("hots") and a "grounded" conductor colloquially referred to as the "neutral." The two energized conductors are 240 Vrms apart, and each energized connector is 120 Vrms to the neutral (i.e. grounded conductor). Hold the idea that these three wires terminate on the incoming side of the main panel for items B, C, and D.

B. The wall outlet in a typical US house, colloquially called an "Edison" receptacle has three conductors. Those are an energized conductor (hot) the grounded conductor (neutral), and the "Equipment Grounding Conductor" (EGC). The latter is a green wire commonly referred to as "ground." Under normal conditions the EGC (ground) carries no current, because it is not a part of the electrical circuit between hot (energized) and neutral (grounded) connectors.

C. Now imagine that you have a wiring problem inside your table saw, and as a result the outer surface of that saw becomes energized. That surface is "bonded," i.e. conductively connected, to the EGC (ground). So if the surface has suddenly has a voltage on it, a large current then flows back through the EGC to the main panel. This is because the EGC is a low resistance path. This sudden surge in current causes the OCPD (i.e. "circuit breaker") to open. This disconnects the energized conductor (hot) feeding the table saw.

D. At the main panel, and only at the main panel, the EGC (ground) is connected (bonded) to the neutral (grounded conductor). This is so that the current from the EGC has a return path. In this case it goes equipment fault -> EGC -> EGC to neutral bond in main panel -> neutral coming into main panel from street -> center tap of secondary on the outside pole transformer. The winding of the utility pole secondary then completes the circuit with low resistance, insuring the OCPD (breaker) opens.

E. Note that neither the main panel "grounding/earthing," technically called the "grounding electrode conductor (GEC), nor any similar grounding/earthing (i.e. connection to physical earth) of the center tapped neutral at the utility pole play a role in the low impedance path for current that opens the circuit breaker. In fact, the earth is specifically excluded as a "ground fault current return" path by NEC 250.4(A)(5).

F. Any utility is concerned with essentially two things when it comes to secondary power at the house: 1)Feeding electricity back to the grid while their workers are making repairs/upgrades. 2)maintaining a singular low impedance "ground fault current return" path in the home at the main panel electrical service entrance.

G. Point F is why there are subtleties about what can be tied to the grid, and how the secondary "renewable generator" must behave in the event that it is exclusively providing power while the utilities' transformer is physically disconnected from the residence at the service entrance.

---

Beyond points F and G are lots of subtleties around sub panels, secondary current return paths, GFCIs, "floating neutral" generators, transfer switches, ground field impedances, etc. It is a surprisingly big topic, but I'm happy to try to answer specific questions.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#147
post #13

You can point fingers and say it was them lobbying, but everyone who didn't do something to act in the opposite direction could have influenced but didn't. I say this not to blame more but to motivate people to take responsibility and to act, to stop people from thinking they're powerless (no pun intended).

In other words, lobbying is great and there should be more of it! I think people here are disappointed not so much in this particular outcome, but the harmful effects of a political system that is nearly entirely fueled by lobby money. I mean, in other countries they call that "corruption".

> In other words, lobbying is great and there should be more of it!

I said nothing of the sort.

Lobbying is not the only way to influence. How about voting and educating the population for starters?

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#148
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the law. It is illegal to have a home not connected to the grid at all. so there is no danger about a backfeed since the 2 systems never meet. What FPL has done is require that solar installations get signed off by their electricians. And they delay, delay and delay that certification process. Meanwhile, you are paying for the cells and installation and it sits unused indefinitely. Some local power companies had…

I think you need to read the law. Nothing in the law requires you to be connected to the grid. Local laws and rules may require you to be connected to the grid to obtain a certificate of occupancy, but I have found no Florida state law requiring you to be hooked up to a power grid. The law that is consistently referenced in these mostly conspiracy blogs is just a set of rules regarding offsetting your power consumpti…

I have no idea why you are being downvoted. This thread makes me think eternal September has arrived on HN. People are running their mouths without any basic knowledge of electricity and national electric codes.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7kw? Amazing! How large is the array? (sq ft) How much did that set him back?

Its half a barn roof, I believe its was around $15k installed. Main issue I have seen with the law in FL for them is that they are net metered but the power bill can't go negative. So if they produce more than they use the power company doesn't have to pay them for it, also they always get a service charge no matter what. So their power bill ends up being about $20 a month no matter what which is just the service cha…

That's how net metering works for me in Oregon, too - I earn credits by over-producing all summer, and then use some of them up until Jan 1, as they won't roll over year-to-year. As a result I gave power away for free to the grid for several years, but now I have a plug-in hybrid to soak up the surplus.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing?

> How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing? 1. Florida does not provide any subsidies for solar installs (only the Federal 30% tax credit) 2. Florida utilities continue to lobby directly against solar, while sinking money into non-renewable generation technologies (this is changing, as some Florid…

I too am a Florida Resident and my power costs are 8.3 cents/kwh. (Duke Energy) I've attached my normal rate sheet below.

https://www.duke-energy.com/_/media/pdfs/rates/peratespefres...

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