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Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

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Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#121

Post by phasetransition »

ams6110 wrote: post #100
kbutler wrote: post #97

Hysterical article is hysterical? The actual laws are more reasonable: "Renewable generator systems connected to the grid without batteries are not a standby power source during an FPL outage. The system must shut down when FPL's grid shuts down in order to prevent dangerous back feed on FPL's grid. This is required to protect FPL employees who may be working on the grid." Note the "without batteries" exclusion a sim…

It sounds reasonable but the way to do this is with a device called a transfer switch. It's used on any proper installation of local power such as a home generator. When the utility power is out, the transfer switch cuts over to local power. There is no feedback to the outside power lines; the transfer switch disconnects them. Are home generators illegal also?

Note 7 on the same page linked above would seem to set up the guidelines for grid tie switches.

The language here appears similar to the way the NEC is written, which can seem confusing unless you use it all the time (as I do). If one had a transfer switch, the renewable generator would no longer be grid tied.

The NEC is full of statements of this style, and often without specific references to the underlying section that defines, e.g. the times where a transfer switch is legal. The code expects you to view it as a whole, and be familiar with the interlocking sections.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#122

Post by _dingus »

cptskippy wrote: post #41
oconnore wrote: post #8

The article is trying so hard it's hard to tell what the actual issue is. It is dangerous to backfeed the grid -- you may kill the line worker coming to fix a blown transformer or downed line. In some places a grid connection is considered necessary by the building code. If so, you must use proper equipment.

There's no citation or research about the laws in question in this article, or the Miami New Times article it cites as a source, or the WFTV article that it sources. From what I gathered in reading the three articles there's a state code that mandates that homes must be hooked up to the electrical grid. With out seeing the law or it's history (e.g. when it was mandated), it's difficult to say if it's malice on the pa…

>there's no evidence presented to support the assertion that they lobbied to prevent solar.

Oh FPL 100% did that. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election...

With that said, this article is fucking bonkers. It makes almost no sense and as you noted, the sources don't even line up with what they suggest they do. IFLS is bullshit.

Unless I'm missing something, the law doesn't require renewable energy generators to be hooked up to the grid. It just establishes some rules requiring you to safely connect to the grid if you are going to offset your power supply from the utility company with a renewable energy source. That's absolutely reasonable. Beyond that, anyone who has bought a house would also want some guidelines and code inspections to be done on something as complicated as a solar install, which this rule also requires if you are going to get your install certified to be interconnected with the power grid and receive excess generation credits.

https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=25-6.065

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#123

Post by lafay »

kbutler wrote: post #97

Hysterical article is hysterical? The actual laws are more reasonable: "Renewable generator systems connected to the grid without batteries are not a standby power source during an FPL outage. The system must shut down when FPL's grid shuts down in order to prevent dangerous back feed on FPL's grid. This is required to protect FPL employees who may be working on the grid." Note the "without batteries" exclusion a sim…

This isn't a Florida-specific thing. It's a requirement of the National Electrical Code (NEC) that grid-tie inverters shut down on grid power loss, for exactly the stated reason. Every commercially produced grid-tie inverter has that feature built in.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#125

Post by veryrad »

I work in the solar industry and can confirm that this is standard safety practice in my state as well. When grid power goes down the inverter is required to shutdown and remain off until a few minutes after normal grid conditions are restored. This is to ensure that the grid equipment is actually de-energized so it can be worked on safely. It's such a ubiquitous policy that all inverters need to be UL Certified to prove that they do this.

Utility companies pull a lot of bullshit, but this policy is actually pretty sound.

If you want to use your PV as backup power, you need to treat is as you would a conventional backup generator and install a manual transfer switch that that isolates disconnects the electrical service as the backup power is engaged. This can nearly double the cost of the solar project, so most people don't do it.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#126

Post by kbutler »

ams6110 wrote: post #100
kbutler wrote: post #97

Hysterical article is hysterical? The actual laws are more reasonable: "Renewable generator systems connected to the grid without batteries are not a standby power source during an FPL outage. The system must shut down when FPL's grid shuts down in order to prevent dangerous back feed on FPL's grid. This is required to protect FPL employees who may be working on the grid." Note the "without batteries" exclusion a sim…

It sounds reasonable but the way to do this is with a device called a transfer switch. It's used on any proper installation of local power such as a home generator. When the utility power is out, the transfer switch cuts over to local power. There is no feedback to the outside power lines; the transfer switch disconnects them. Are home generators illegal also?

The last item in the link I provided requires:

"All renewable energy systems that do not utilize a U.L. 1741 listed inverter to feed power to FPL require a manual, visual load break disconnect switch"

The UL 1741 specification describes inverters that do precisely that switching function (https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipme...)

So basically, "You have to install a safe system that won't fry our workers when they're trying to restore power."

I support that.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#127

Post by emodendroket »

wallace_f wrote: post #120
emodendroket wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically, solar panels, batteries, ovens, etc all can catch on fire and cause my neighbors to as well. Should we ban all of them? Maybe not, but there are lots of regulations on how they have to be made and installed and I think that's quite reasonable. > But I think what we can see here is that if there is no potential in one harming another's rights, there's no legitimate reason for government to get involved.…

You are entitled to disagree me with me and take the opposite stance: that government should get involved in our lives even when what we are doing does not affect another's rights.

I don't think the idea that what we are doing does or doesn't affect another's rights is that clear-cut. What if I'm renting the place out? What about more abstract rights, like, I don't know, not having to smell rotting food you left out? The harm there isn't exactly direct and there's a judgment call as to what is reasonable and what is too far.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#128

Post by criddell »

JshWright wrote: post #70
criddell wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you can't shoot them for trespass.

Florida has strong "castle doctrine" and "stand your ground" laws. If you can convince a jury you were afraid, you can do pretty much anything you want on your own property.

I understand that. But if you're so fearful that you think a code inspector is there to harm you, you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Instead you should seek medical care.

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#129

Post by toomuchtodo »

willvarfar wrote: post #18
oconnore wrote: post #8

The article is trying so hard it's hard to tell what the actual issue is. It is dangerous to backfeed the grid -- you may kill the line worker coming to fix a blown transformer or downed line. In some places a grid connection is considered necessary by the building code. If so, you must use proper equipment.

How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing?

> How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing?

1. Florida does not provide any subsidies for solar installs (only the Federal 30% tax credit)

2. Florida utilities continue to lobby directly against solar, while sinking money into non-renewable generation technologies (this is changing, as some Florida utilities have thrown in the towel and have begun to plan to install utility scale solar and battery storage)

3. Unlike other states, utility power in Florida is already very inexpensive (~6 cents/kwh) generated from coal, natural gas, and nuclear, so there's less incentive than in other states to move to rooftop solar.

Source: Florida resident

Re: Florida Power and Light: Regulations for home solar installations

#130

Post by wallace_f »

emodendroket wrote: post #127
wallace_f wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are entitled to disagree me with me and take the opposite stance: that government should get involved in our lives even when what we are doing does not affect another's rights.

I don't think the idea that what we are doing does or doesn't affect another's rights is that clear-cut. What if I'm renting the place out? What about more abstract rights, like, I don't know, not having to smell rotting food you left out? The harm there isn't exactly direct and there's a judgment call as to what is reasonable and what is too far.

It's not at all clear cut, it's just the best starting point (in my eyes, the most moral starting point), and it is the starting point we have gone from.

The fact it is not clear cut is why we have courts and history of law to draw from. Things like what you say, or such as building something on your property that destroys another person's view, were once taken to court, and the rulings established precedent.

My point is that it's important to remember this is what we have been trying for all along, because sometimes that point gets missed.

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