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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#111

Post by ngz00 »

GunlogAlm wrote: post #95
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller. I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.

can you fix my controller? last I checked they were like $60

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#112

Post by BartSaM »

mysterydip wrote: post #98
c0m0 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military. For such a purchase you do not make a guess and buy. You make a guess, multiply it by 3 and then buy. Cost saved by going for customer grade electronics vs. specialized will easily justify this. You will still be saving lots of money.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#113

Post by nasredin »

deliriousferret wrote: post #67

Will it vibrate when they get hit?

Captain Ramius: Re-verify our range to target... one ping only.

Capt. Vasili Borodin: Captain, I - I - I just...

Captain Ramius: Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please.

Capt. Vasili Borodin: Aye, Captain

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#114

Post by wallace_f »

ToFab123 wrote: post #82
kobeya wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've said why it is expensive. Not why it needs to be expensive.

Maybe to avoid issues like this. https://www.wired.com/2010/11/1110mars-climate-observer-repo...

Not as bad a mistake as the Challenger Disaster (engineers knew it would happen, but management ignored them).

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#115

Post by mysterydip »

BartSaM wrote: post #112
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military. For such a purchase you do not make a guess and buy. You make a guess, multiply it by 3 and then buy. Cost saved by going for customer grade electronics vs. specialized will easily justify this. You will still be saving lots of money.

I didn't say you wouldn't save compared to some other solution. I said it's not as simple as just buying. You'll have loss no matter your estimate.

And as I said to a sibling comment below, you can't always just buy excess. You have budgets you need to stay under, to support everything you handle.

Consumer grade is not the same as buying from the same places we buy, either. You have to use approved vendors, which add their own markup. What you or I may buy for $5 might only be available for $25.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#116

Post by mysterydip »

skj wrote: post #110
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

Next to the cost of a submarine I believe "excess stock" inefficiencies will be unnoticeable. Probably compared to the cost of custom hardware, too.

The issue is there's a difference between where the money comes from (capex vs opex for a simplified and incorrect example). Your support areas don't get the same budget as your construction areas. And when money runs out for the year you still have to keep thinngs running.

And while I agree that excess stock costs pale in comparison to a sub or boat, multiply that by every part necessary to keep one operational, and then face all the people every year who say the defense budget needs cut.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#117

Post by rmc »

GunlogAlm wrote: post #95
cstross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have two big reservations about this. 1. The Virginia class was first commissioned in 2004, with a 33 year design life. The XBox 360 was first shown in public in 2005, with a design life of ...? Yup, it's consumer electronics, with a design life of much less than 33 years. Even though there are on the order of 80-100M of them in the wild, by and by XBox 360s and replacement parts will be getting scarce. (If you t…

I personally doubt that scarcity will be too big an issue with Xbox 360 controllers for the foreseeable future — development of new 360 hardware only ended in April last year. I can think of no piece of consumer electronics cheaper to source and repair than the 360 controller. I'm sure, though, that both 1. and 2. are concerns the US Navy will have given ample consideration before making this move.

The SNES came out 27 years ago. Can you still get controllers for it?

(Imagine if current submarines were using SNES controllers... )

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#119

Post by cwingrav »

mysterydip wrote: post #98
c0m0 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is easily solved by buying enough supply of controllers right now to last for 33 years. 2. Are you sure the non-commercial version come from and doesn't have embedded processor, and how do you know it's really good quality and not just very expensive because of low quantity production?

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

mysterydip, you're doing a lot of posting and not listening to some of these very good answers.

First. No, lifetime buys are not always a tough problem. While they can be tough, consumer grade electronics have to be the best product to predict lifetime buys on due to clear end of life and good data on mean time to failure.

Second. Let's do some math. Let's assume a 30 year operation. There are 48 of this sub planned. Let's say for some reason they go through 3 a year. At $30 each, we're looking at $130k to outfit the entire fleet of subs for their operational lifetime. Or, we could buy about 3.5 of the existing joystick, not even enough to outfit the 4 subs that are already in operation.

Lastly, it is likely that a 3rd party would take over the manufacture of these devices when they end of life anyway. It's a popular consumer electronic after all. The government would just buy a bunch then, reducing lifetime warehouse costs and getting better data to predict the lifetime buy.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#120

Post by otimepad222 »

BartSaM wrote: post #112
mysterydip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifetime buys" are a thing, and also can be expensive because you don't always have a good estimate when doing so. Either you buy too many and waste $ with excess stock, or you don't buy enough then 10 years later have to scrounge for more stock at higher prices, or come up with a replacement. It's a tough problem.

There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military. For such a purchase you do not make a guess and buy. You make a guess, multiply it by 3 and then buy. Cost saved by going for customer grade electronics vs. specialized will easily justify this. You will still be saving lots of money.

"There is hardly a thing, like a wasted hardware in the military." Care to share what hollywood movie this is coming from?

[*] https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

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