China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages • Hacker News Board

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#161

Post by wallace_f » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #157

wallace_f wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he did not spend 13 months in prison. For 13 months he was required to sleep in a special cell, weeknights only. He was free to leave during the day and weekends.

He was often allowed to leave for work release to help the government build a case against Bear Stearns. He definitely had to stay there during the weekends. According to federal prosecutors, only one of the girls would agree tontesitfy against him and that wasn't enough to get a conviction. If you read about the case in sources that aren't determined to link the whole thing to a Bill Clinton conspiracy, you'll see i…

Do you have a source regaring the terms of his sentence?

Anyways, one of the interesting things about his involvment was that he has paid out in civil lawsuits to about 40 victims.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#162

Post by intended » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #156

intended wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a semantic defense of the original "routes around censorship" concept. When that statement gained currency it was about being free to finally be outside of the cage that governments and large organizations made. Today the old guard have built new tools - mass online commenting - to combat the signal itself. So while the network may well reroute around censorship - the good censors just use the network…

The historical problem was that the state controlled all media. The only message available was propaganda. Now you can get any information if you want it and the problem is that propaganda still exists and some people still believe it. It's not perfect but it's better .

Well... the states continue to control the media now don't they?

And with the new tools, in particular the ability to sock puppet and impersonate human behavior in a context poor environment (you can't physical see the person, so can't make out if they are real or not, or body language and other factors we normally have during interaction).

So wouldn't it be fairer to say that they now have stronger control?

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#163

Post by bnolsen » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 10:25 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #90

scottLobster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

Yes, exactly. These extreme laws are only possible because china has "rule by law" rather than "rule of law." They are not applied very aggressively, only to take down enemies when needed.

Sounds like the US where there are gazillions of stupid laws on the books which allows them to throw the kitchen sink at anyone they decide they want to go after. Aaron Swartz anyone? https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2013/01/14/aaron-sw...

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#164

Post by bnolsen » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 10:29 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #33

scottLobster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

What's really interesting about this is how unstable it makes the country. Clamp down and eventually you end up in a USSR situation where the government suddenly disintegrates with little real warning because there is no feedback loop to maintain stability. Things seem ok because everyone ends up walking around pretending things are good even the people enforcing the rules. Untill you get a little spark and suddenly…

During the short window where Cuba opened up we had a cuban pastor visit our church. The biggest thing that impressed him about the US was that everyone seemed to follow the laws.

These totalitarian societies where the law doesn't apply to anyone in power the people pretty much follow the example and ignore the law themselves.

Make everyone a criminal and the law is worthless.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#165

Post by alphaalpha101 » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

unabridged wrote: post #81

alphaalpha101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA doesn't have freedom of speech in any meaningful sense. You only have to look at the way peaceful protestors are treated to see that. The Occupy Wall Street protesters were treated horrifically. As more and more formerly public places are privatised and the veneration of private property as an ideal above all others continues, the USA is simply running out of places where you're even allowed to protest. And t…

Blocking a road is not free speech. Preventing people from going into a building is not free speech. This is just private citizens attempting to restrict the right of movement of other private citizens. The right to publish any media, no matter how obscene or political, is free speech. And the US has the closest to free speech of any major country.

>Blocking a road is not free speech. Preventing people from going into a building is not free speech. This is just private citizens attempting to restrict the right of movement of other private citizens.

It's a march. It's a protest. Protesting is free speech. Of course it's free speech.

>The right to publish any media, no matter how obscene or political, is free speech. And the US has the closest to free speech of any major country.

No, that's freedom of the press. Freedom of speech is about protesting.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#166

Post by bnolsen » Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 11:07 PM UTC

sushcount wrote: post #43

Retric wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really interesting about this is how unstable it makes the country. Clamp down and eventually you end up in a USSR situation where the government suddenly disintegrates with little real warning because there is no feedback loop to maintain stability. Things seem ok because everyone ends up walking around pretending things are good even the people enforcing the rules. Untill you get a little spark and suddenly…

Chinese government is panicking over its crashing economy, and it shows in its actions. As of this year, it - banned soft cheese - banned all korean music and entertainment - (got rid of) Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Laureate, and prevented his wife from leaving China - banned ICO - banned a bitcoin exchange - prevented its companies from investing overseas (Wanda, etc) - (rumored) prevented the richest person from leaving…

The xinjiang things are fully justified. Serious problems with terrorism, random knifings, random needle injections, etc. Very bad stuff. As long as china doesn't allow the han population to carry defensive weapons they have no choice but to suppress the murderous muslims there. You want to go to a restaurant or a store? Metal detector and xray machine for your bags. (My wife is originally from there and she has relatives who live there now).

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#167

Post by unabridged » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 9:14 AM UTC

kbart wrote: post #123

unabridged wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The american colonies were not democratic, they needed a violent revolution to create a democracy. There was no peaceful mechanism for them to take power. Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. They could have peacefully taken control in elections if they were able to convince the voters. But instead they disbanded the legislatures and stopped having elections.

"Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. " Russia was not[0]. One of the key reasons that laid foundations for revolution there was wide discontent of nobles and their arrogance towards common people. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy

The people overthrew the Tsar and had one free election:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_e...

The authoritarians (bolsheviks) didn't like the results (thought the people weren't conscious enough yet to be trusted to be democratic) and disbanded the democratic assembly. Instead they used their own assembly made of up representatives indirectly elected via small local groups where they controlled the voting by force. Which caused a civil war in which the authoritarians won.

The authoritarians were just more organized and better at violence.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#168

Post by kbart » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 10:04 AM UTC

unabridged wrote: post #167

kbart wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Russia and China were already democracies before the authoritarian parties took over. " Russia was not[0]. One of the key reasons that laid foundations for revolution there was wide discontent of nobles and their arrogance towards common people. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarist_autocracy

The people overthrew the Tsar and had one free election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly_e... The authoritarians (bolsheviks) didn't like the results (thought the people weren't conscious enough yet to be trusted to be democratic) and disbanded the democratic assembly. Instead they used their own assembly made of up representatives indirectly elected via small local groups where they contro…

An interesting history fact I didn't know -- thank you. But I doubt one election, which results were immediately negated anyway, is enough to call Russia "a democracy". It looks like it was just a (failed) attempt of bolsheviks to get an international legitimacy.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#169

Post by sebastianconcpt » Tue, Sep 19, 2017, 11:56 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #18

yarg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Communist Party does not practice communism - it never has. They are no more communists than the DPRK is democratic. Communism was co-opted very early on and became just another form of authoritarianism.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

Correct, a bandits cult with good marketing/gamification (ideology).

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#170

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 7:43 AM UTC

bnolsen wrote: post #166

sushcount wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese government is panicking over its crashing economy, and it shows in its actions. As of this year, it - banned soft cheese - banned all korean music and entertainment - (got rid of) Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Laureate, and prevented his wife from leaving China - banned ICO - banned a bitcoin exchange - prevented its companies from investing overseas (Wanda, etc) - (rumored) prevented the richest person from leaving…

The xinjiang things are fully justified. Serious problems with terrorism, random knifings, random needle injections, etc. Very bad stuff. As long as china doesn't allow the han population to carry defensive weapons they have no choice but to suppress the murderous muslims there. You want to go to a restaurant or a store? Metal detector and xray machine for your bags. (My wife is originally from there and she has rela…

Maybe there are legitimate grudges the "murderous muslims there" have which are not addressed by the state? Like the right to political self-determination.