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Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

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Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#121

Post by RobertoG »

alexasmyths wrote: post #98
ekianjo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

"Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway," No, not true at all. Supply and Demand. The 'cost' of doing drugs in society right now is pretty dam high. Social stigma, the possibility of going to jail, various professional licences lost. The 'free market price' of synthetic heroin and other drugs would be as cheap as sugar. Walk down to the local store and buy…

Not saying that you are wrong, but I don't think you are right neither, it's a complicated issue.

Addicts will pay, so, the price it's not a big influence in they taking drugs. It's a big influence in what kind of life they have. There are cases of rich functional addicts.

Maybe, cheaper drugs would create more addicts, but we have the example of alcohol and weed in some places to examine. It's not so clear this is the case.

Legal drugs doesn't mean, necessarily, socially accepted drugs. I think that makes a big difference.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#122

Post by lagadu »

marze wrote: post #60

Bottom line is deaths from overdose. Drugs criminalized, USA: 150 deaths/million people/year Drugs legalized, Portugal: 3 deaths/million people/year

To be clear, drugs aren't legalized in Portugal; they're decriminalized. That means that traffic and selling is still a crime but consumption and possession of small amounts (there's a table listing those) is not a crime.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#123

Post by DanBC »

stickfigure wrote: post #52
mc32 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree with consumption not being punishable but a medically treatable issue. Misditribution (illegal distribution) of controlled dugs (not over the counter) should be punishable --whether they be doctors who knowingly over prescribe or black market sellers (drug dealers).

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

But even with legal distribution you're going to want to have limits - no selling to children, for example.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#124

Post by vidarh »

mc32 wrote: post #56
stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

I don't see that borne out by the opioid crisis. Many believe it was lax prescription that allowed opioids to become preferred and prevalent narcotics to abuse. If they are not available it does not matter how many cars or houses you brake into, it does no good if no one is selling. So you say, well in that case someone will make them dirty and available for a price. Punish the illegal seller and prosecute all suppli…

The most recent crisis is due to overprescription, yes, but that didn't mean that e.g. heroin wasn't a problem before.

> So you say, well in that case someone will make them dirty and available for a price. Punish the illegal seller and prosecute all suppliers who knowingly sold to someone not registered. Prosecute any and all corruption related to making and distributing the product illegally.

Which is exactly what we know from experience has never worked. Why do you think you could make it work?

The outcome is to drive up prices until it becomes sufficiently profitable for sufficiently brutal syndicates to take on production and distribution.

How do you think we ended up with the amount of death and misery the drugs trade causes in the first place?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#125

Post by RobertoG »

machiaweliczny wrote: post #113
blubb-fish wrote: post #82

Here in Germany politicians are still stating that Cannabis is a gateway drug, causes psychosis and makes stupid. They will even actively lie and twist statistics. My theory for why many politicians - especially from the right-wing - are so opposed is b/c they didn't like their weed smoking and long-haired fellow students. It's a Pavlov thing. Like many people dislike golf (justly so in my humble opinion) b/c they di…

Extensive use of cannabis has such effects from my observations. While at University I knew some people who were smoking weed everyday and they exposed psychosis, acted weird and were lazy. Maybe it's from some other substances that could be mixed with it...

I have observed that people that I knew many years ago and that use weed daily, now have psychological problems.

I know it's not a scientific study, but it have changed my mind. Years ago I though that weed was mostly inoffensive.

Interestingly, I heard an expert to comment that the weed of now it's not the weed of then, but many times more powerful because the plants have been selected for it.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#126

Post by lagadu »

lqdc13 wrote: post #110
lagadu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most notorious large-scale, well studied example of complete decriminalization, Portugal, shows the opposite to be true[0]. [0] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decr...

That's not true. Usage increased[0,1]. - Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, lifetime use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1% [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20110725093536/http://www.idt.…

That only shows more people trying drugs out, it doesn't show a total drugs consumed amount (by weight/dosage or similar volume metrics) increase.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#127

Post by grondilu »

Imagine a old dam. It's in poor condition, with cracks here and there, letting some water through. Its maintenance is extremely expensive and seemingly useless, since for ever crack that is fixed, a new one appears.

Now some guy shows up and says "this dam costs us too much and we are failing to fix it. Let's just blow it up!"

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#128

Post by vidarh »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #69
throwaway613834 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that there's the war on drugs and then there's the War on Drugs, and the latter is what is (correctly?) attributed to Nixon, even when it is not bothered to be capitalized.

Another context for the same words: Vietnam could be considered the war on drugs. If what I've read is correct, US soldiers were given amphetamine pills "like candy".

A huge proportion of US soldiers (20% according to some sources) also used heroin while in Vietnam, giving rise to one of the more interesting studies of addiction related to heroin [1] that also taught us a great deal about how to kick addictions and change behaviors (the short of it being that a change of environment makes breaking habits far easier)

[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/14443179...

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#129

Post by tomp »

mc32 wrote: post #56
stickfigure wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot avoid the nasty social effects of drug prohibition (crime, violence, contamination, etc) without making distribution legal. If you want to live in a world without homeless junkies breaking into your car, or a world without running gun battles in the street, or a world without your wayward kids accidentally ODing on their next batch, you need drugs like cocaine and heroin to be sold openly and affordably at…

I don't see that borne out by the opioid crisis. Many believe it was lax prescription that allowed opioids to become preferred and prevalent narcotics to abuse. If they are not available it does not matter how many cars or houses you brake into, it does no good if no one is selling. So you say, well in that case someone will make them dirty and available for a price. Punish the illegal seller and prosecute all suppli…

> Punish the illegal seller and prosecute all suppliers who knowingly sold to someone not registered. Prosecute any and all corruption related to making and distributing the product illegally.

So, in other words, keep failing in exactly the same way as we're failing right now?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#130

Post by DanBC »

icantdrive55 wrote: post #75
mc32 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see that borne out by the opioid crisis. Many believe it was lax prescription that allowed opioids to become preferred and prevalent narcotics to abuse. If they are not available it does not matter how many cars or houses you brake into, it does no good if no one is selling. So you say, well in that case someone will make them dirty and available for a price. Punish the illegal seller and prosecute all suppli…

1. Many, even the ethical, doctors prescribed opioids for pain, and misery. 2. A very small percentage of Doctors set up shop to hook their patients. 3. I just can't put all the blame on doctors. 4. People are miserable across this county. A lot of you are insulated from the misery, but it's there. The anti-drpepressant effects of opioids should not be hidden. They make you feel good. Plus--I don't think it's a coinc…

US doctors are prescribing far more opioids that doctors in any other country. The US uses 99% of the world supply of hydrocodone, for example.

The opioid crisis is far worse in the US than in any other country.

> I don't think it's a coincidence that heterocyclic/tricyclic anti-depressants have come under extreme scrutiny. Basically--do they even work. Oh yea, that double blind study, in India, proved they work 62% over a huge Placebo response? Meaning 6 patients answered three positive questing, more that the control group, on that poorly worded psychological test.

SSRIs are good at treating depression if you actually have depression. (something like 60% efficacy) If you don't have depression they don't work at all. The lack of efficacy of SSRIs is just US doctors again overdiagnosing and overtreating.

The theme is US healthcare is not very good for very many people..

> There are studies, done in nursing homes, that state that patients on opioids can stay on tge same dose of opioids for years, and don't feel the need go up their dose.)

Do you have a source? Because all the studies I've seen show that long term use of opioids causes tolerance, and doesn't work to treat pain.

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