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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#651

Post by slrz »

kelnos wrote: post #586
imtringued wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring a server to playback the media is already the strongest form of DRM possible. If that's not enough they can just make their own native applications that implement all the DRM that they could possibly want. The only disadvantage of a native application is that they are not crossplatform and EME CDMs aren't exactly cross platform either. They are native code that require the module to be ported to the operati…

> EME is basically Flash 2.0. That's a gross exaggeration; it's nothing of the sort. Flash is a generic application framework that gets more or less unfettered access to the network, local machine, and browser state (Chrome's Pepper Flash improved a lot of this, fortunately). EME is a heavily-sandboxed decryption and display engine, and nothing more.

Heavily sandboxed, eh? On most devices that implement EME, the DRM implementations run with privileges exceeding that of any user code, e.g. in the TrustZone environment on most Android devices.

The Microsoft DRM implementation is built into Windows (and made available to Websites via EME) and requires cooperating device drivers or no highres video for you.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#652

Post by mirimir »

civilian wrote: post #446
objclxt wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. They have no market influence. They have maybe ~10% of the market globally (I've seen figures between 5-15%), and that's primarily desktop - which is decreasing daily. On mobile it's even worse (probably less than 1%). Any influence they have solely extends to the desktop, and that's not the primary way people are interacting with the internet nowadays…

Market share isn't immutable! Market share changes based on capabilities. I dropped IE for FF when I got a basic understanding of computers, I dropped FF when it became clear it was a memory hog, and now I kind of toggle between Chrome and FF. I think that, with killer features like breaking out of DRM, the market share could change.

Indeed. People who want nothing to do with DRM will want alternatives. Once DRM-integrated browsers are compromised at scale, more people will want alternatives.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#653

Post by lovich »

tptacek wrote: post #91
barrkel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're discounting the opportunity cost here. In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box b…

I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard. A standards body is a great place to…

>To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB.

I'm not sure how true that is. Currently getting content is easy enough that the average consumer doesn't use it, but at least back in the mid 00's the technical people in my social circle got introduced to torrents by people who didn't know how turn off a computer except by unplugging it. They we're willing to take all sorts of risks with their computer on sketchy sites the second it became the easiest way to get their content.

If torrents and piracy become the easiest way again, I could easily see regular people going right back to it.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#654

Post by mirimir »

btown wrote: post #598
featherverse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest not underestimating Mozilla's market influence. It would be possible to create a browser that displays DRM content and ignores DRM. The only thing that content publishers could do is ban that browser. And then it would adapt to disguise itself as other browsers. DRM on the web can only happen if all of the major players (that is, browser publishers) agree to play along. I am very excited about this ne…

> displays DRM content and ignores DRM Nothing says "attempting to survive as a legitimate corporate entity" like "let's flagrantly violate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performance... ..."

Who needs to "survive as a legitimate corporate entity"? All you need is to publish a browser. And basic browsers aren't that hard. Just be anonymous.

Edit: If oligarchs create unworkable rules, why not create a new game?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#655

Post by drngdds »

gtirloni wrote: post #450
eof wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a follow up, isn't all this DRM for naught? If you send the video and the audio to my computer, I can record it after it's decrypted. What problem does this really solve? I already use netflix/amazon because it's more convenient than torrenting, unless it isn't. Seems the possibility is nil DRM-free versions of DRM content won't be available anyway.

You're right, content will always be pirated. However, security and rights management is never about definitive solutions. DRM makes it hard for 99% of the people and that's enough for copyright holders. They can focus their resources on the other 1% (unfortunately including poeple with legitimate reasons). I'm not agreeing with this but it's how it is and I don't see that changing. I agree with another commenter tha…

>DRM makes it hard for 99% of the people

I don't think this is true. You can find illegal streams for many (most? (all?)) TV shows with a quick Google search. It's also pretty common knowledge that TPB and similar torrent sites exist, and you don't have to be in the top 1% of computer users to install a BitTorrent client.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#656

Post by quadrangle »

tree_of_item wrote: post #643
dsacco wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not axiomatic; in fact, it's a normative claim, not a positive one. The argument is not that there are no consequences, but that DRM is a net positive because those consequences are the trade off for more and better content online. Why don't you clarify why you think the tradeoff is not worth it, instead of just saying DRM = bad?

What they said was that DRM = user does not control their hardware, not DRM = bad. And that's true.

they said both (and both are true)

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#657

Post by ghostly_s »

brians wrote: post #566
tptacek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard. A standards body is a great place to…

The tracker/torrent numbers I see are consistent with more than a quarter of US college-aged people using them, and more than three quarters watching media obtained that way—those are better numbers than HBO. It absolutely has a role in tastemaking.

Curious, who publishes figures on this?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#658

Post by y_u_no_rust »

smsm42 wrote: post #156
noir_lord wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really insane part is that the DRM is pointless anyway, you can go onto any file sharing/streaming site within minutes of a Netflix release dropping and it's there in HD. I still maintain my netflix account 1) because my mum uses it with her Roku and 2) because they should be paid for providing value and good TV. I have the technical skills (like nearly all HN readers I'd imagine) to stream whatever I want with e…

I remember I has signed up for Audible - and was completely prepared to pay their subscription fees, despite a lot of content being available on pirate sites for $0. But I am old enough to value my time and pay reasonable fee for just mere convenience. And also it's the right thing to do, right? Turned out, however, that I could not play this content on most of my devices, because it was DRMed into something awful, d…

It horrible for Kindle books too, I have to manually dedrm the amz files just so i can read the books I've purchased in a application I enjoy

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#660

Post by cyphar »

app4soft wrote: post #567
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

Basically, unless you are writing a browser with decent marketshare, you defacto have no voice in making the standards. Basically, the only voices that matter are Mozilla (Firefox), Apple (Safari), Google(Chrome), and Microsoft (Edge/Explorer). Despite what any standard says, web developers are going to go by the behavior of the browsers do. The only company on the list of browser makers that really has any desire to…

Pale Moon will be the last outpost in the world of suitable open-source browsers? https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/issues/135...

GNU IceCat would be a better choice of "last outpost".
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