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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#621

Post by Veedrac »

kelnos wrote: post #574
Veedrac wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the decision being made is between EME and Adobe Flash Flash is a mix of dying and dead, mostly the latter. Having to use Flash is a strong economic and practical motivation not to use DRM, and if that wasn't the case there wouldn't be so much pressure to implement something in the browser itself.

That's pretty unlikely. If Flash (and Silverlight) died and browsers didn't have anything built-in, the studios/distributors would just get together and form a company to build a new plugin that does the job. Or worse, we'd have several competing implementations. Regardless of which of these occurs, you can bet that they wouldn't bother to sandbox the implementations, and we'd end up with the same security issues we…

You're looking at this as black and white, when reality doesn't work that way. It being infeasible to completely remove DRM from everything doesn't mean there isn't value in discouraging its use. And that's exactly what economic and practical incentives would do if including DRM meant they lost users.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#623

Post by slrz »

DrJokepu wrote: post #539
pedrocr wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess Google Chrome on Windows must be a niche thing then. Because that only gets 720p.

> Not possible on any open-source operating system So where do you get more than 720p if you don't get it neither on open source operating systems nor on Chrome on Windows? If you get 720p max everywhere, why do you think this has anything to do with DRM?

You do get better quality, but only if your system has an OS-level DRM implementation and the browser uses it. This is the case for IE Edge on recent Windows, but not much else.

Chrome on Windows uses its own Widevine DRM implementation instead of the OS-integrated one.

This shitshow is referred to as "robustness requirements" and Netflix apparently agreed to serve high-resolution video only to DRM implementations of certain "robustness" level (OS-integrated DRM with video drivers that co-conspire in enforcing restrictions on the actual device owner).

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#624

Post by HashThis »

Our democracy has a problem. Crony capitalists will sell out to corporations. They will reject the democratic process in order to sell out to corporations to have power to monetize those citizens. They don't care about protecting citizens.

DRM in standards == force == freedom removed

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#625

Post by AnthonyMouse »

kelnos wrote: post #596
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux users could be a bit more screwed if publishers had to move to Windows/Mac apps if interested in desktop/laptop users There is not any kind of real difference between not having a native app (or whatever WINE patches are needed to run it) and not having some platform-specific EME black box binary. > What's the difference to a user of opening a Netflix app vs going there in the browser? Basically nothing. For…

> Users balk at installing apps from little known sources Do they? With the rise of the Mac App Store and whatever similar MS is doing, I doubt they much care.

What rise of the Mac App Store? The only reason anybody even uses the iOS App Store is that there is no other way to distribute iOS apps.

If it was easy to install mobile apps direct from the author's website as on a desktop, who would voluntarily be paying app stores 30% of their revenue?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#626

Post by Iv »

sboselli wrote: post #38

Shame, shame, shame. We're losing the internet day by day, if we haven't done so already. I've seen people and posts here and there calling for attention on these issues, but imho it's all too subtle. We should start using harsher terminology for what's actually happening. This is flat out CORRUPTION, and I'm not seeing anyone express it as such. It's probably too late already, and unfortunately, this is merely a ref…

We have lost it: P2P should have been the future of internet. Instead it devolved into the "connect to a server for everything" cloud system.

Internet should be like ZeroNet: a serverless system where content of interest is shared by its millions of viewers and where servers only use a small amount of bandwidth as backups and initial seeders.

That the wikipedia still needs servers and asks donations yearly to keep them online is a testament to how stalled progress in internet infrastructure is today.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#627

Post by [deleted] »

mljoe wrote: post #606
ehsankia wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People were naively thinking/hoping that once Flash and plugins die, DRM would magically disappear and media companies would start putting all their content on the open web, for anyone to access. I'm with you, I'd much rather have a clean, secure and well implemented option, rather than each company trying to hack together a solution that will be buggy, insecure and inefficient. The option of there being no DRM was r…

I wouldn't say that. If it between having no DRM and having no web presence, I think broadcasters would pick no DRM. DRM really doesn't do very much to protect against piracy. It's just a way for C-level execs to show they are doing something to protect their IP. It's a kind of security theater.

[deleted]

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#628

Post by Iv »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

Basically, unless you are writing a browser with decent marketshare, you defacto have no voice in making the standards. Basically, the only voices that matter are Mozilla (Firefox), Apple (Safari), Google(Chrome), and Microsoft (Edge/Explorer). Despite what any standard says, web developers are going to go by the behavior of the browsers do. The only company on the list of browser makers that really has any desire to…

It took me a while to understand how politics are very different than the binary world of logic and strictly enforced rule of my CS universe.

In politics, very often, there are no strictly enforced rules, there are groups of pressures pushing in opposing directions. W3C has no way to prevent proprietary browsers for doing what they want, they just put some pressure on them. They know that going through W3C is the easiest way to agree on a standard and to provide interoperability for their users.

This is a small amount of pushing power.

EFF withdrawing is normal: that's the main item they were interested in. The question now is to see whether Mozilla will stay.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#629

Post by sasas »

md224 wrote: post #619
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks. I understand that this is an extremely unpopular sentiment on HN, but here goes: at least with respect to video content, the industry seems to have largely proven DRM concerns unfounded. Update: modulo the Hickson concerns below. Continuing: DRM ce…

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument for DRM (we need to ensure artists receive fair compensation for their work), but I wonder: If the entertainment industry could survive the age of "DVD ripping with abandon", can't it survive the age of "people copying Netflix movies with abandon"? Do industry leaders anticipate the latter will be much worse than the former? Is the cash flow situation that dire? Or is DRM abou…

How do you prevent someone from capturing their screen and recording a movie? Do you really think it will stop or slow down piracy ?

What we do know for certain is it will strip you as a consumer of control over of hardware and software that you purchased.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#630

Post by trowway21 »

jandrese wrote: post #6
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

Basically, unless you are writing a browser with decent marketshare, you defacto have no voice in making the standards. Basically, the only voices that matter are Mozilla (Firefox), Apple (Safari), Google(Chrome), and Microsoft (Edge/Explorer). Despite what any standard says, web developers are going to go by the behavior of the browsers do. The only company on the list of browser makers that really has any desire to…

This is really the issue. If we could convince media rightsholders that DRM is harmful and unnecessary then all of this heartache wouldn't be necessary. I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime. Any slight glimmer of hope from Apple ditching DRM on iTunes has died as nobody else shows the slightest interest in following their lead.

Make a browser extension that works across all browsers to sync user data. Then inform consumers. Consumers then easily switch to better independent browser builds, forcing media holders' hands. If consumers have no desire or ability to become aware, and can't muster the will to delay gratification for a few days it's hopeless. Consumer awareness must be the end goal; rather than establishing a smaller subset of aware representatives to tell the media holders the consumers care. The media distribution channels own the media right holders. They control the flow of $ completely. Six corporations have complete control. Same corporations choose which of the infinite security flaws to discuss on the news, and effectively dictate the browsers and consumption methods/endpoints people use. No solution will acomplish the result of total consumer awareness, for any period of time, without first achieving consumer awareness.
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