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Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#21

Post by Mz »

rocqua wrote: post #8
alfon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might also want to have her CSF independently tested for nematode worms. (what I mean by this is to put it under a microscope). it surely won't hurt, as some pathologists (although not published yet in the medical literature AFAIK) are finding them in all the samples they have tested for. More information: https://youtu.be/aTPU87CKQLQ?t=6m30s If this proves to be the case for your aunt, the good news is that anti…

I looked into both of those researchers. I could find nothing published by them with regards to MS. They do both seem to have published on Lyme disease. Can you provide any published research to back those youtube videos? Maybe I'm wrong here, but this feels like giving medical advice based on very little hard evidence. Considering I have a loved one with MS, I find such advice sickening. You see this with many termi…

Making such claims lightly is (excuse my language) being a fucking asshole.

(I know, harsh words. But I needed to get this off my chest)

Taking this out on someone with carefully worded suggestions that only advocate testing is also "being a fucking asshole." Because very frequently the people putting out such info are giving testimony from firsthand experience because they know firsthand what a fucking nightmare it is and if they got better, it only seems the decent thing to do to share info that might help some people with the same diagnosis they had. And then they will run into this kind of ugliness ten thousand times, no matter how carefully they word it.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#22

Post by nso »

alfon wrote: post #18
rocqua wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into both of those researchers. I could find nothing published by them with regards to MS. They do both seem to have published on Lyme disease. Can you provide any published research to back those youtube videos? Maybe I'm wrong here, but this feels like giving medical advice based on very little hard evidence. Considering I have a loved one with MS, I find such advice sickening. You see this with many termi…

I, myself, was diagnosed with RR Multiple Sclerosis, with multiple dem. lesions in both brain and spinal cord, ON, delayed evoked potentials, 4 years ago. Completely reversed the condition with long term antibiotics and anti-helmintics, no evidence of MS currently. So my advice might be biased, sorry. As I said, there is no harm in examining this perspective. I didn't advocate for treatment, but for testing.

What do you mean by "no evidence of MS"? Brain damage reversed? 4 years with no relapse with RRMS is not unheard of. I did 15 perfect years before I got hit with a big one. I too am symptom free untill I suddenly am not. That's exactly why you and I have the diagnosis RRMS as opposed to one of the other subtypes.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#23

Post by darkerside »

> Acinetobacter are molecular mimics of proteins found in myelin, the nerve cell coating that the immune system attacks in MS. That suggests the bacteria might trigger immune attacks that hit myelin, too, as when soldiers who inadvertently resemble the enemy get hit by friendly fire.

If this is true, could high dose antibiotics eliminate the gut bacteria and thereby halt the immune reaction associated with that type of MS?

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#24

Post by colordrops »

lrem wrote: post #19
jryan49 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

I've recently watched a ton of Ted talks on the subject (thank you, autoplay), so you can call me a proper internet know-it-all. The consensus seems to be: nobody knows, but the SAD certainly is not the right answer. As diverse as you can get and as little processed as you stand seem to be popular ideas too. Dropping sugar and milk seem commonly recommended, but they can pry my ice-cream from my cold, dead fingers.

Small amounts of animal protein and lots of raw greens and vegetables, tubers and roots. Everything else is extra. Be careful though about making any specific recommendations here or else someone with a different idea will attack you for not backing it up with scientific data. Because you shouldn't try to figure out what to eat until you get a PhD.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#26

Post by Havoc »

shanev wrote: post #11
Havoc wrote: post #5

Much of the auto-immune related diseases seem to be vaguely arriving at a similar conclusion lately.

Auto-immune diseases and their link to gut bacteria is not new. The relationship between MS and gut bacteria alone goes back to at least 2006 [1]. To learn more about auto-immune diseases and gut bacteria, I highly recommend the book An Epidemic of Absence [2]. It's an impressively well researched book that doesn't skimp on the science. I managed to get my eczema under control by learning about the relationship betwe…

>I managed to get my eczema under control by learning about the relationship between gut, food, inflammation, and auto-immunity.

And what did you do? Everyone seems to agree that dietary changes are the answer. What exact seems to vary.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#27

Post by vanderZwan »

jryan49 wrote: post #12
Mz wrote: post #10

the gut immune system has 70– 80% of the body's immune cells. http://m.ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G922 It seems like a pretty obvious connection once you know that detail. If you have any kind of chronic medical condition, you would likely benefit from improving your gut health. (Hint: Dietary changes are a good place to start.)

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

Well, in terms of general dietary knowledge, NutritionFacts.org[0] is great. When I first visited it I thought it looked a bit sketchy, but turns out to be a treasure trove.

Yes, Dr. Michael Greger also sells books and DVDs through the site, but you need neither buy anything nor register to get access to all the material on the site.

Most of the videos are basically him summarizing a large number of papers on a specific subject. Each video is accompanied by a transcript, and sources.

[0] https://nutritionfacts.org/

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#28

Post by caublestone »

Bacteriophages lost out to antibiotics in the 1950s. Designing bacteriophages for specific microbes is fairly straight forward so you could design a probiotic loaded with good bacteria to be delivered with a bacteriophage against bad bacteria to quickly adjust the microbiome ecology towards a desired state. The nice thing is that bacteriophages are dietary supplements so you don't need drug approval (unless cure claims are made).

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#29

Post by toomuchtodo »

jryan49 wrote: post #12
Mz wrote: post #10

the gut immune system has 70– 80% of the body's immune cells. http://m.ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G922 It seems like a pretty obvious connection once you know that detail. If you have any kind of chronic medical condition, you would likely benefit from improving your gut health. (Hint: Dietary changes are a good place to start.)

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

> What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

High fiber, high fat, moderate protein, as few carbs as possible. Water whenever you're thirsty.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#30

Post by shanev »

Havoc wrote: post #26
shanev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto-immune diseases and their link to gut bacteria is not new. The relationship between MS and gut bacteria alone goes back to at least 2006 [1]. To learn more about auto-immune diseases and gut bacteria, I highly recommend the book An Epidemic of Absence [2]. It's an impressively well researched book that doesn't skimp on the science. I managed to get my eczema under control by learning about the relationship betwe…

>I managed to get my eczema under control by learning about the relationship between gut, food, inflammation, and auto-immunity. And what did you do? Everyone seems to agree that dietary changes are the answer. What exact seems to vary.

What to do varies because human bodies, environment, and gut bacteria composition varies. It's more than diet. Inflammation due to lack of sleep, stress, or smoking is also a huge factor.

That said, the biggest factor for me was eliminating dairy. I used to drink more than a gallon of milk a week. I saw results after about two weeks of eliminating dairy. My dermatologist was shocked. She refused to believe there's any correlation between diet and eczema. Patches didn't start completely going away until I also eliminated wheat. They are basically gone when I regularly eat fermented foods, take a soil-based probiotic, and get good sleep.

You might want to try an elimination diet (starting with dairy, then wheat/gluten). If you want something more structured check out an auto-immune paleo protocol like Whole30. I wish that existed when I got started. Had to learn the hard and slow way on my own.

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