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Cutting your salary by 40%

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Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#91
post #68
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. It's not in the slightest bit down to convenience. It's because 40 hours was quite simply discovered to be a more productive length of day, well over a century ago, back in the later stages of the industrial revolution. In the US, if memory serves, the move to a 40…

It's because 40 hours was quite simply discovered to be a more productive length of day That was true when most of the workforce was doing manual and factory style labour. To the best of my knowledge it hasn't been rigorously reproduced for works that spend their days staring at a screen thinking.

And if it's not been rigorously tested, then there doesn't seem to be any strong case to assume that the ideal number for office work is higher, rather than lower, than 40.

I'm also wondering how commute time (and method of commute) factors into this. Does 30 minutes of physically strenuous cycling before/after work have a positive or negative impact on office workers? Does the same time spent in a car navigating stop'n'go traffic have a different effect? Both involve some element of mental effort, but both are quite different from the rest of the days tasks. Certainly in my experience one helped my mental state and one didn't.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#92
post #10

To add to this, I recently got let go from my job 2 weeks ago . With that said, my boss routinely tried to guilt trip me because I didn't want to work more than 40hrs a week. I have 2 very small children and my wife is pregnant, I can't spend all my time working, nor do I have any desire to. There were a few times I put in a couple of 60hr weeks, but that was only to appease him, not because I felt it was necessary.…

imagine if a supervisor said "Time to put on your big-boy pants" to a woman. that'd be front page stuff.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#93
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is weird to me. At least here in Finland when you are salaried for the standard 37.5h work week (7.5h work day with 30min lunch break) if you work more then that you log the hours as overtime and get paid for them or in some form of "flex" time that you turn into vacation days or money (there are limits to how many hours of flex you can have banked up) I know some smaller companies/start ups work around this but…

your not salaried one of the key features of salaried jobs I sno fixed hours of work and no OT.

I dunno. The direct translation of "salaried" to Finnish is "kuukausipalkallinen" and/or "palkallinen" (which is what it says in my current contract). Which basically means monthly paid or just paid. This is the "default" way of getting paid for your work. We have separate system of hourly paid called "tuntipalkallinen" (again a direct translations tunti==hour and palkallinen==paid)

I think this comes down to the employment law here in Finland. Working more then 40 hours a week is basically illegal unless you get compensated for those extra hours. There are some exceptions:

* owners (duh...) and their family members (family businesses)

* C level employees

* work you do at home wholly (if your company has a office the employee visits a couple times a year is enough for you to not be included in this)

* churches religious employees (priests etc. not the janitor)

* military/border control has their own special way of doing it

* some jobs have 120 hours every 3 weeks way of counting this

As a side note:

Maybe we just don't have the same concept as "salaried" in our language at all (at least I can't come up with one). Closest would be "urakkapalkka" which is basically contract work (as in I will build you this website that you want for X euros. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 100 hours because we already agreed on the price). No you are not allowed to abuse the contract work way of doing it by having "he will work for our company every week day for as long as we cancel this for as much time as it takes to get shit done"

Only legal way that I know of for getting around this is starting your own one man company and being a consultant. But then it is a contract between 2 companies and a whole lot of protections in both directions go away. Also you most likely need a lawyer to get a "good" contract and handle all the taxes, pension, etc by yourself (this is pretty much automated here in Finland for normal employees).

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#94
post #55
post #21

As much as I'd love to believe the "work more than 40 hours a week, because SCIENCE!" party line, I have a hard time accepting it, and I think so do most people who hear it (outside of HN, at least). For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of peopl…

> For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. It's not in the slightest bit down to convenience. It's because 40 hours was quite simply discovered to be a more productive length of day, well over a century ago, back in the later stages of the industrial revolution. In the US, if memory serves, the move to a 40…

It seems odd to cling to 100 year old data. Just run a few studies today and see what produces 'optimal' work weeks.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#95
post #21

As much as I'd love to believe the "work more than 40 hours a week, because SCIENCE!" party line, I have a hard time accepting it, and I think so do most people who hear it (outside of HN, at least). For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of peopl…

There are many reasons why one can't believe a person's own reasoning for why they've succeeded where others haven't.

There are a lot of startups who work "smart and hard" and they don't go anywhere, and there are a lot of startups that are successful despite having spent very little, real effort on their product, because startup success is orthogonal to hours-worked. It's much more important to know the right people who can make the right introductions to investors and press.

People are not reliable narrators. If you ask a person to list off everything they've done in a day, without prior preparation to know they were supposed to remember everything, they will likely forget vast swaths of activities, busy work, and goofing off they performed as a matter of routine. I know a lot of people who claim to be busy all the time just because they are in the office for 80+ hours a week, but I know for a fact they spend most of it trawling Twitter and HN. Yes, that means they are sum-total working less than 40 hours a week.

It's extremely difficult to measure the impact of decisions on productivity when you're even trying, say nothing about when you're anecdotally claiming your success is due to habitual overtime. A person who habitually works overtime has no idea of whether they are being more productive or less than they would be if they worked fewer hours, because they never work fewer hours to be able to compare.

There are other confounding factors, but to me, these are the biggest.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#96
post #21

As much as I'd love to believe the "work more than 40 hours a week, because SCIENCE!" party line, I have a hard time accepting it, and I think so do most people who hear it (outside of HN, at least). For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of peopl…

Argumentum ad populum and general disdain for academic research. What's the point of this comment?

You might buy into the work long hours mythos of startups, but simply restating it doesn't make you any more right.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#97

I enforce a militant "40 hours only" policy for my employees, and it's incredible for productivity. When you work longer hours defect rates increase, code quality drops, and things are on fire all the time. You also lose really good people due to burnout. Sustainable pace is super important for creating and maintaining high performance teams. Crassly, it's just a more profitable way of doing business. I wish more man…

How did you determine that 40 hours is optimal? Why not 30? Or 50?

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#98
post #38

This is insane. I've actually been looking to reduce my work hours to about 30, because even 40 seems too much. Having had a couple of burnouts before, I want my life to be more than my job, and I truly believe this would make me better at my job in the long term. After a day of full time work I almost never have the energy to do some of the other things I want to do. I want to be able do more open source, learn a fo…

I'm working 32 hours: 4 days a week. That leaves me a day with the kids outside the weekend. Oldest kid is at school most of the day, so I take the youngest to the zoo or something. I heartily recommend it.

It's crazy that we're all still working 40 hours a week. Didn't Keynes promise we'd have 15 hour work weeks by now? (He did. He didn't anticipate our bosses taking all the profits from our productivity gains, though.)

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#99
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a standard number of hours what's the point in being salaried? Why don't they just pay you hourly?

Because nobody on the better paid fields would take such a contract. You could try it but you would most likely lose in the market place of jobs by all the best employees going somewhere else. As to why having a contract that pays you for the standard work week always I think people just like the security of getting roughly the same amount of money each month (or biweekly or however often you get paid). Especially on…

So the point of salaries is to not have to pay overtime? No wonder everyone is becoming a contractor.
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