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Cutting your salary by 40%

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Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#71
post #2

The original job postings[1][2] were even more egregious. They originally said, "many of us routinely work 70-90 hours/week". After a lot of criticism on a Facebook post by Andrew Ng[3] (where you can still find residual evidence of the "work 70-90 hours/week" claim), they modified it to, "many of us routinely work and study 70+ hours a week". So to be precise, they were initially offering you a 43% to 56% pay cut. G…

> Getting paid for 40 hours Do salaried jobs always specify a number of hours in their contracts? Otherwise you aren't being paid for 40 hours - you're just being paid to get the job done aren't you?

Yes this is standard. In all my employment contracts there has been 37.5 or 40 hours defined as work week. In Europe it's mostly 37.5h so you are paid to work 7.5 hours per day and have 30 min paid lunch break.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#72
post #21

As much as I'd love to believe the "work more than 40 hours a week, because SCIENCE!" party line, I have a hard time accepting it, and I think so do most people who hear it (outside of HN, at least). For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of peopl…

> For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity.

It's probably not, for thought workers at least. The correct value is probably lower - closer to 30 hours a week. There have been studies which have begun to correlate this, but I don't have them off hand.

40 hours is for manual, repetitive labor. And from my limited experience doing manual, repetitive labor when I was younger it's a pretty good number. I wasn't so exhausted I couldn't do anything at home after work, and I had the weekends to spend with friends and family.

Working hard is a personal choice, but the chances are pretty good that the quality of work is going to drop as the hours pass.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#73
I see it the other way around: Any programming (or similar) job that doesn't compensate you as if you were working 70 hours a week is taking money away from you. These are not the 1900s and you are not assembling widgets in a factory. Your work goes with you wherever you are, quite literately in the form of your smartphone, and more insidiously by not getting off your mind. Maybe it's just me and I lack the skill to forget work at 5 p.m. sharp, but my suspicious is that half our industry comes up with solutions to work-related problem while they are at home, on holiday, etc.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#74
post #21

As much as I'd love to believe the "work more than 40 hours a week, because SCIENCE!" party line, I have a hard time accepting it, and I think so do most people who hear it (outside of HN, at least). For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity. For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of peopl…

> For one thing, it's highly convenient that the standard US work-week happens to be the exact "correct" amount of hours to work to maximize productivity.

You're right, it's probably actually much less. Go count how many people are browsing Facebook/etc at the start of the day, lunch, and at the end of the day. Even out of what's becoming an increasingly normal 45 hour workweek (9-6), lots of people are probably working 35 at best.

> For another, anecdotally at least, most people know plenty of people who work longer hours and do it successfully. And most of the really successful people out there will mention that they worked insanely hard at some point. Are they all lying? All wrong?

You're comparing the outliers to the average. Some people will have an almost-linear relationship between hours worked and productivity. For most people, it'll be logarithmic.

Further, lots of bias going on here:

* You remember the successful people who worked hard more, because it furthers the idea that hard work == success

* No one's going to tell you they became successful without working hard. It's a slap in the face to everyone else, and few people are honest/tactless enough to admit they became successful without working hard.

* Most successful people would probably rationalize their success as the result of hard work (and obviously that might be true to some degree)

> The article itself mentions people doing extra hours of coding on personal projects, and we all know some people who have started companies that way. What, do these projects simply not exist? How does that make any sense?

One is self-driven and you can drop it at anytime if things get in the way (children, etc.). The other is imposed on you externally and you can't really go from working 70 hours a week to 40 hours a week. Well, you can - but it almost always involves changing jobs.

> Why does everyone on HN just assume they know better than those people themselves, and set off to make them feel bad and exploited?

Because it's downward pressure on our value as laborers. I mean - that's the real story. If you have to work twice as hard to earn 50% of the salary, your value as a laborer has just been divided by 4.

Very few people want to feel like they're becoming worth less over time. This of course can be offset if the output of your labor has more value to you (e.g. people go to work at non-profits, etc), but in general it's easy to pinpoint why most people resist this kind of pressure.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#75
post #19

Forgetting the article a second; I’d happily work for 40% less than the going rate as long as I can work remote full time...

You can! And usually with only a slight pay cut. There are a lot more remote-ok and remote-only companies now.

The pay cut from my experience can be pretty dramatic. Whenever I have replied to a remote job ad and asked about salary it would often mean 40%+ pay cut for me.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#76

The article doesn't claim this is endemic to only startups, and in my experience work life balance among small, medium, and large companies is equally threatened. Even the term "work-life" balance seems to assume an artificial divide between the two. When work is a facet of a rich life, those extra long hours, the grueling commute, the vacillations of the newest management fad are just not worth it. Not to mention th…

[deleted]

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#77

Cool post! What happens when every company is doing this ritual? I'm starting to notice a very bad trend. Just like how LA has record numbers of homeless people, it also has a high vacancy rate. Similarly, despite plenty of "open positions", candidates are being denied left right and center, even as they do their best to signal that they will do anything for the job.

Some businesses are run in sprint mode (not agile style sprint) and others are run in marathon mode. For those trying to build a lasting business with a consistent group of employees you can only run in marathon mode. If you're looking for businesses who operate in marathon mode you may have to look outside SF/SV or NYC (those are the top 2 markets for long hours built into the economic model and high employee turnov…

I live and work in NYC and several of the companies I've worked for have never required more than 40 hours a week for work. In fact, if you did work long hours they would give you a day off or let you take extra vacation time like say taking a month long vacation to make up for it. You run someone into the ground then that person has health issues or leaves. Tech companies in NYC are very good about not having people work overtime. Even some older companies I've worked at like NYT and Reuters have great time off policies. I know for awhile Reuters had work from home Fridays.

All their business knowledge goes out the door with them. You end up wasting time with the hiring process and then finally hiring someone who costs more money who doesn't understand your business at all and won't be really able to contribute at a high level for 6 months while getting up to speed.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#78
post #2

The original job postings[1][2] were even more egregious. They originally said, "many of us routinely work 70-90 hours/week". After a lot of criticism on a Facebook post by Andrew Ng[3] (where you can still find residual evidence of the "work 70-90 hours/week" claim), they modified it to, "many of us routinely work and study 70+ hours a week". So to be precise, they were initially offering you a 43% to 56% pay cut. G…

> Getting paid for 40 hours Do salaried jobs always specify a number of hours in their contracts? Otherwise you aren't being paid for 40 hours - you're just being paid to get the job done aren't you?

its normally expected for salaried jobs that you do on average x hours a week and that you in most days for the core hours say 10 - 4

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#79
post #38

This is insane. I've actually been looking to reduce my work hours to about 30, because even 40 seems too much. Having had a couple of burnouts before, I want my life to be more than my job, and I truly believe this would make me better at my job in the long term. After a day of full time work I almost never have the energy to do some of the other things I want to do. I want to be able do more open source, learn a fo…

Go for it! I'm working a 30-hour week right now. Like you, I feel even 40 hours/week of pure coding ist just not sustainable.

Out of the 3 software dev jobs I had up to this point all the people that 'worked' over-time were just wasting more time drinking coffee and chit-chatting with colleagues. Most of the time I just want to put in a productive day, solve 1 or 2 problems and then go home at a reasonable time, so I can actually enjoy my life, not just sit in a damn office all the time.

Also, having worked a 30-hour week for a few years now, I'd actually be willing to work a 40-hour week again, but only if my job then gives me responsibilies beyond just being a coder. Putting in 4-5 hours of really productive coding work a day and then spend the rest of the time on something else, like managerial work is something I can see myself actually doing. But expecting people to produce high-quality coding work for 8 hours a day is just wishful thinking.

Re: Cutting your salary by 40%

#80

I enforce a militant "40 hours only" policy for my employees, and it's incredible for productivity. When you work longer hours defect rates increase, code quality drops, and things are on fire all the time. You also lose really good people due to burnout. Sustainable pace is super important for creating and maintaining high performance teams. Crassly, it's just a more profitable way of doing business. I wish more man…

What is your methodology for determining the change in defect rates and code quality?
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