Live data from Hacker News

The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

scienceblogs.com

31–40 of 46 posts

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. On the other hand, people seem quite happy taking caffeine and alcohol and daily or near-daily basis. Even mixing the two. So I guess your statement doesn't hold in general?

First, you can't really judge a person's happiness just by looking at them. Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. Take dopamine for example. If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate. If you take a drug that…

> Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume.

I don't know, if that's true in general. I know that I can seriously harm myself using lots of stuff --- so why shouldn't the other way be possible as well? (I don't claim that anybody knows how to achieve the positive outcome.)

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#32
post #7

Short version of this blog entry: I heard someone say somewhere once that it seemed to lower their creativity and it totally makes sense doesn't it!!!!

Worse, it wasn't the same drug' it wasn't even in the same class of drugs. For an interesting overview of modafinil see http://www.modafinil.com/

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#33

How did this make it onto a science blog? "It only makes sense..." is the start to many failures in our understanding. Wtf?

Unfortunately, I have noticed before that a lot of stuff on scienceblogs.com isn't very scientific, it's more than a bit of a grab-bag.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you can't really judge a person's happiness just by looking at them. Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. Take dopamine for example. If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate. If you take a drug that…

> Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. I don't know, if that's true in general. I know that I can seriously harm myself using lots of stuff --- so why shouldn't the other way be possible as well? (I don't claim that anybody knows how to achieve the positive outcome.)

I think Alex3917 is right on the money here. Often, the way that you harm yourself is by depriving your body of the drug you were previously consuming.

Theoretically, what you propose could be possible, but would probably involve multidrug therapy with the goal of inhibiting the regulatory pathways that would counteract the drug of choice.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His complaint (and one I share) is that most blog posts about nootropics are actually about stimulants, while there are actually several nootropics that are well-studied, reasonably safe, and probably effective * , but since they don't get you wired, they're apparently too boring to mention. * though my stance on this is that you're better off actually getting enough sleep, eating well, taking it easy on caffeine and…

Since you apparently already modded me down for disagreeing with me, would you care to back up your nonsense? I would love to see a link to a reputable scientific journal which demonstrated that "some nootropics that enhance utilization of acetylcholine DO enhance creativity, specifically piracetam and aniracetam". If you can't come up with one, would you like to explain the whole 'probably effective'?

I didn't mod you down. I'm not that invested. The part that really bothers me is the whole, "We're going to talk about how 'smart drugs' make you creative, and then spend a post rambling about how taking speed is awesome" load of crap that seems to come up like clockwork here.

I've tried piracetam (and other various racetams), and stand by my opinion at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1212193. I did my research, but it was five-ish years ago, and don't have it on hand anymore. (I also don't work at a library with awesome medical journal access anymore...sigh.) Most of what I read concerned people with Alzheimers or other degenerative conditions associated with old age, or measurable brain damage caused by years and years of heavy drinking. I'm convinced that piracetam is probably useful, but for healthy people, sleeping enough / eating better / etc. will probably have as much effect. ("Probably effective" FWIW, I had the best results with getting more sleep and switching (mostly) from coffee to green tea. I had really poor sleep hygiene, but was ignoring it because I wanted to keep learning more. Wikisomnia.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. On the other hand, people seem quite happy taking caffeine and alcohol and daily or near-daily basis. Even mixing the two. So I guess your statement doesn't hold in general?

First, you can't really judge a person's happiness just by looking at them. Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. Take dopamine for example. If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate. If you take a drug that…

A lot of strong claims here. Can you provide solid sources?

I have a hard time believing that psychiatrists and psychologists would endorse psychotropic drugs because of some big pharma conspiracy.

If you're right, I'd like to know. But if claims like, "every longterm study on every pharma drug shows that you are worse off in the long run," are so sweeping as to seem spurious.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#37
post #7

Short version of this blog entry: I heard someone say somewhere once that it seemed to lower their creativity and it totally makes sense doesn't it!!!!

Regardless of his lack of scientific method, I would agree that most stimulants do decrease creativity to some degree. However, some nootropics that enhance utilization of acetylcholine DO enhance creativity, specifically piracetam and aniracetam. My problem with the article is mis-titling it "smart drugs" if it is only about Provigil. The wikipedia nootropic article has almost everything you would want to know: http…

I concur from personal experience which is why I balance my caffeine levels. I found that caffeine helps to get a bunch of small/tedious stuff out of the way and hinders the deep thinking required to the creative/hard work.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#38
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. On the other hand, people seem quite happy taking caffeine and alcohol and daily or near-daily basis. Even mixing the two. So I guess your statement doesn't hold in general?

First, you can't really judge a person's happiness just by looking at them. Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. Take dopamine for example. If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate. If you take a drug that…

> Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume.

Not true; this is a common pop-sci myth. Nearly all neurological signal processors have numerous types of inputs and outputs. While it is true that the body usually alters drug sensitivity so as to counteract the drug effect, it simultaneously alters many other signal senders and receivers. (You can read about protein kinases and nuclear receptors, which are famously broad spectrum, to learn more about how complicated things are.)

> If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate.

Which, of course, does not mean that the drug effect is magically cancelled out, but rather that the cell becomes less sensitive to sudden bursts of dopamine from its neighbors. The drug might also affect not simply the magnitude of receptor sensitivity, but the rate at which the receptor desensitizes during continued stimulation, as well as the firing pattern of the neuron.

Even the receptors themselves are complicated. Most neurotransmitters are received by a family of several distinct receptor types: stimulating one type may make any imaginable change on the other types. Many receptors are made of several interchangeable subunits: the levels of the subunits can change independently, tuning complex patterns of activity rather than simply compensating for the drug. Many receptors are actually receptor complexes that receive several neurotransmitters at the same time: understanding these is presently a scientific tar pit. (IIRC there are several important dopamine-serotonin receptor complexes. The NMDA receptor complex is famously sensitive to a slew of things.)

> And if you increase the ability of your receptors to bind to dopamine, the amount of dopamine in your brain will decrease.

You might find it enlightening to study the difference between postsynaptic receptors and presynaptic autoreceptors.

> Virtually every longterm study on every pharma drug shows that you are worse off in the long run than if you'd never taken it at all, ...

This is not even remotely true. Many drugs are conclusively proven to be very effective (assuming proper patient selection). Popular stand-bys, like those for inflammation and blood pressure, are popular precisely because they Just Work. For as long as you keep taking them.

The central nervous system drugs work too, although the statistics are less impressive. The main problem is that the available drugs are outnumbered by the brain's possible failure modes, so the efficacy rate tends to lag. A related problem is that the drugs tend to be broad spectrum, so it can be tough to dial up to an effective dose without running into unacceptable side effects.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#39
post #2

As a lifelong ADHD child, I do agree. Take a pill, write a report for 8 hours. But attempt a poem, a piece of story, and nothing happens. Attempt a daydream...nothing. You're very focused, and that means you struggle to talk to anyone...because they're not into your topic. Focus makes you boring.

[deleted]

Re: The Hidden Cost of Smart Drugs (2008)

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you can't really judge a person's happiness just by looking at them. Second, you can't really cheat your biology in the long run, because your brain will always compensate for any psychoactive drug you consume. Take dopamine for example. If you take a drug that increases the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will decrease its density of dopamine receptors to compensate. If you take a drug that…

A lot of strong claims here. Can you provide solid sources? I have a hard time believing that psychiatrists and psychologists would endorse psychotropic drugs because of some big pharma conspiracy. If you're right, I'd like to know. But if claims like, "every longterm study on every pharma drug shows that you are worse off in the long run," are so sweeping as to seem spurious.

Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. Also check out this blog post of his that summarizes the largest longterm studies of the mainstay psych drugs:

http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Home/AB86250A-A...

You definitely have to read the book though, it's incredibly well researched.

Post reply on HN