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China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

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Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#61

Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt. They will export more young utility focused entrepreneurs fed up and not wanting in to that domineering state whacking their friends. We had a different colonial trajectory, but our own McCarthy era had disastrous cascading outcomes. "Rights to be forgotten" is another peculiar notion popular in some TV propaganda driven Western countries loving makeovers. Ke…

> Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt China didn't have much innovation coming out to start with. China mainly did the steal/force transfer/borrow technology thing.

And that's what just about all countries did when they industrialized.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#62
post #56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't underestimate the nationalism of young Chinese. And I very much doubt the CP is going to go after administrators who on-the-whole moderate with a pro-Beijing slant because they took 5 minutes too many to delete a comment. Making assumptions that all young people hate the CP and would betray their country to the west at first opportunity sounds like one of those classic mistakes the West makes when it projects i…

Most outsiders probably do not realize the impact of 24/7 propaganda in every media channel there is. That's what OP is overlooking, and that's ultimately what this action is ultimately about...

Seriously, most outsiders can't even see the propaganda in their own media. How do you expect them to see it in other countries?

Chinese propaganda at the moment is really amateurish. Just wait until they learn from the best [1].

1. Noam Chomsky - Manufacturing Consent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTBWfkE7BXU

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#63
post #16

There is fair amount of really smart people inside China (in tech scene and otherwise) that probably want out [of the country] but don't know a clear path for doing so, I think efforts should be made to that clear path; to work on companies outside China [where they don't fear for their life if someone made a anti-government comment on their site]. Due to censorship by the national dictatorship such online effort mus…

There are also a fair amount of really smart people outside of China (in tech scene and otherwise) that want in [to the country].

Almost half the people I've met are trying to go to China to start one thing or another.

I would say over a quarter of my Chinese American friends have moved to China to start a company, while an even larger portion fly back and forth quite often.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's because utopian projects are at odds with human nature This asks the question - what isn't at odds with human nature? Why do you think that utopian projects are necessarily at odds with human nature? Marx and Engels were sociologists, and in fact many modern sociologists are Marxists too. That doesn't mean they're right, but it's some indication that the "human nature" argument needs looking into. And it has be…

The Frankfurt School is fundamentally post-modernist in its approach, and I reject its ideas that the truth has more to do with domination and less to do with objective reality. Ultimately, human nature derives from evolutionary biology, which in turn comes from fundamental aspects of game theory. That's why, if we contact aliens, I don't think they'll be as alien as some imagine: their society will be driven by the…

>We're primates, not pure energy beings that we can reprogram at will.

Nobody doubts this; my point is that our current mode of production has a very strong effect on how we go about our daily lives and the attitudes that it influences; we have overcome "human nature" in many circumstances, but that's irrelevant because it's clear that the way people behave is to do with how they are raised, what kind of attitudes are imbued in them; for Marx labour is not merely something that people do, but it's something that we do which makes us human; thus the changed characterstic of labour, which comes in through the base of society influences the superstructure. I don't know why you seem to be clinging so much to the idea that human nature is as we see it now; Fromm notes for example that "human nature" has changed, such as the arising of the general desire for fame that has only been seen since the 14th century. Yet many would say this is human nature. Do you not think that historical analysis is important here? Socioligists have more of a place to describe exactly what human nature is rather than biologists and the empiricists whose only data is restricted to what they can see here and now. This is too narrow.

>collectivist societies

Communism is the epitome of individualism, the free association of people. All society hitherto is collectivist by definition, man is not an island, he is formed and forms everything around him in the effort to make it non-alienated.

>which we arrived at through millennia of trial-and-error and free choice.

No. Capitalism is no more a natural phenomenon than the Russian revolution's spurred State socialism was. Look at the enclosure in Western Europe and the laws which led up to it, the functioning of the State and how its function has changed. Your idea that we are simply in a natural point which has not been forced in any way, that capitalism is the highest form of development, ignores that history is not linear, and that systems win because people push them. Capitalism comes in to the world 'soaked in blood' as Marx puts it.

>When we listen to the sociologists, we get the holodomor.

Analysis of our society does not bad economic planning and/or genocidal killing make. When we listen to sociologists we also get revolutionary Catalonia and universal health care in the civilised countries.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh. I think we'd like to believe that, mostly because we don't want to face the possibility that China's system might work out fine.

I wish I knew more about Chinese history. They have about 4K years of institutional memory to draw on and they likely are more aware of their history than we are of ours in the West.

> They have about 4K years of institutional memory

So does Greece. That doesn't appear to be doing Greece much good in the modern era though.

Also, large swaths of China's institutional memory were wiped out during the Cultural Revolution.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#67
post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

> The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! And that's why it's important to fight those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech" or whatever else tickles the moral panic of the day. Efforts like Google's Conversation AI seriously worry me: they have the potential to shape thought the same way that the Chinese approach does. I…

"In a sense, it doesn't really matter whether it's the government or a big corporation that performs automated censorship."

It does matter. If it's a company doing this, you still are free to run your own servers and say anything you want. If it's the government, you don't have that freedom. You can be jailed, fined, executed, exiled...

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#68
post #10

The regulations also demand that all chat room users in mainland China verify their real identity... Effective 8 October, the following types of content will be prohibited in chat groups on China-based messaging platforms: 1. Sensitive political content 2. Rumors 3... Holy shit. What is this going to do to the Chinese tech scene? The liability being created here is crazy to consider. Lets all hope these practices are…

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law.

- Óscar R. Benavides

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! And that's why it's important to fight those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech" or whatever else tickles the moral panic of the day. Efforts like Google's Conversation AI seriously worry me: they have the potential to shape thought the same way that the Chinese approach does. I…

"In a sense, it doesn't really matter whether it's the government or a big corporation that performs automated censorship." It does matter. If it's a company doing this, you still are free to run your own servers and say anything you want. If it's the government, you don't have that freedom. You can be jailed, fined, executed, exiled...

> If it's a company doing this, you still are free to run your own servers and say anything you want

The Daily Stormer recently had a different experience. Besides, when your entire life's infrastructure depends on an ecosystem of data services, being suddenly disconnected from that ecosystem is tantamount to banishment. That's definitely the kind of punishment that can discourage speech.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#70
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

Actually, I believe that all states end up the same :(
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