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The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

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Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#61

Post by rdiddly »

the_evacuator wrote: post #34

My neighborhood Nextdoor is full of NIMBY on this topic. Apparently electrosensitivity afflicts some 90-95% of people who have the free time to go to city council meetings at 3pm on weekdays. Shungite pendants have been recommended to fend off the illnesses caused by radiation. Even the local school does not have wifi because some local bozo said his kids were "injured" by EM fields, not just any fields but specifica…

Technology and "progress" are never without problems or externalities. And residents of MBY are the ones who deserve the right of self-determination regarding said BY. Including evaluating whether they are going to get proportionally enough benefit from a project to justify the costs they will inevitably bear from having it situated there. They have a right to be suspicious of EM radiation, or even downright superstitious. But what about the mere fact that it's simply an ugly-ass tower? Maybe they're just fine with 4G or even 3G service and they're like "no thanks." So your challenge is, how do you present the value proposition in any non-condescending and convincing way? If you don't agree with their reasons, fine, but then it's up to you to make an honest go of persuading them, and if they still don't go for it, oh well. Maybe try building it in your own BY. But the arrogance represented by your viewpoint is not going to win any battles or friends. "Oh my mistake, thank you so much for educating me!" is what nobody will say ever. They can be arrogant too, just as easily. And stubborn.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#62

Post by wbl »

tzs wrote: post #45
Severian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these idiots. I got into an argument with one who was concerned with the RF from their smart electric meter. I tried to explain the difference between ionizing radiation and non-ionizing, DNA 'damage', and such. No such luck getting through to them even when presented with scientific fact. I usually tell them they should be more concerned with sun exposure than anything, if they are worried about DNA damage. I…

There are a couple of known mechanisms by which non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation can be dangerous to biological systems. One is by heating of tissue caused by absorption of EM radiation. This one can probably be safely ignored in almost all normal situations. Another is by inducing currents and fields in parts of the organism which could disrupt normal operation. For example, DNA is conductive, and its shape ma…

There is a basic physical issue here. For an EM wave to induce any sort of voltage difference across the length of a DNA molecule it would have have a wavelength on the order of that molecule's size.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#63

Post by fapjacks »

Stratoscope wrote: post #59
the_evacuator wrote: post #34

My neighborhood Nextdoor is full of NIMBY on this topic. Apparently electrosensitivity afflicts some 90-95% of people who have the free time to go to city council meetings at 3pm on weekdays. Shungite pendants have been recommended to fend off the illnesses caused by radiation. Even the local school does not have wifi because some local bozo said his kids were "injured" by EM fields, not just any fields but specifica…

Nextdoor can be interesting. One of our neighbors posted a photo of "chemtrails" and explained her worries about the military jets that are pumping this poison into our skies. She asked if anyone had noticed the particular "X marks the spot" pattern that the chemtrails made that day targeting our neighborhood. I said that our area (SF Peninsula) has major north-south and east-west airline traffic routes overhead, so…

Nextdoor is a brazen display of all the stupid things you hope your neighbors aren't into. And you can't even use Nextdoor to help you "shop" for the right neighborhood. You can only join after you've moved. They'll only show you the naked insanity once you've committed.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#64

Post by bmc7505 »

throwaway613834 wrote: post #44
j_s wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which carrier is this? Verizon has promised to kick anyone going over 200GB/month off completely. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/01/11... I am being pressured by my significant other to give up my two grandfathered lines since it works out to $60/line + $80 for the plan every month, and they now offer other "unlimited" options.

> I am being pressured by my significant other to give up my two grandfathered lines since it works out to $60/line + $80 for the plan every month, and they now offer other "unlimited" options. Can I ask why you're not giving it up? That price sounds really high.

There are a number of advantages to the grandfathered unlimited plans that are kinda complicated. Basically, there are fewer restrictions on the kind of devices you can use the SIM cards in, and the scenarios where they can throttle you are different. Some plans also include subsidized device upgrades every two years.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#65

Post by fourthark »

superkuh wrote: post #60
cshenton wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, no change then? Since those "home wifi" connections come through a centrally owned comms network.

It's a big change. Telco-provided wireless internet connections are not actually real internet connections. Half the time you don't even get a real routable IP address and nearly 100% of the time you don't get ports or even the ability to forward them. And that's not even mentioning the horrible data transfer limits and traffic shaping. Whereas home connections are real, have real IPs, and have full ports that you co…

So... back to Ethernet?

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#66

Post by rayiner »

rdiddly wrote: post #61
the_evacuator wrote: post #34

My neighborhood Nextdoor is full of NIMBY on this topic. Apparently electrosensitivity afflicts some 90-95% of people who have the free time to go to city council meetings at 3pm on weekdays. Shungite pendants have been recommended to fend off the illnesses caused by radiation. Even the local school does not have wifi because some local bozo said his kids were "injured" by EM fields, not just any fields but specifica…

Technology and "progress" are never without problems or externalities. And residents of MBY are the ones who deserve the right of self-determination regarding said BY. Including evaluating whether they are going to get proportionally enough benefit from a project to justify the costs they will inevitably bear from having it situated there. They have a right to be suspicious of EM radiation, or even downright supersti…

You don’t bother. You move to a neighborhood where people mind their own business and don’t mind a little infrastructure (or the occasional non-functioning auto) in their back yards.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#67

Post by AnthonyMouse »

gnicholas wrote: post #53
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder at what point we'll start seeing people simply stop paying for in-home internet via WiFi in favor of relying solely on their mobile data package, in the same way that people stopped paying for corded phone lines and are starting to stop paying for cable television. I'm surprised there hasn't been more movement in the other direction. There are very inexpensive WiFi-first phone plans ($20/month + data), whi…

It's true that many people spend 95+% of their time on wifi, but we still need to be reachable when in transit. It would be interesting if there were a super-light cellular package that only offered minimal data/calls. I think this is basically what Comcast is rolling out, using the Verizon network as a fallback. The primary method of routing calls is over your own wifi, and over xfinitywifi hotspots at many broadban…

The plans exist. Google Fi is $20/month with unlimited calls and texts but metered data. You can also buy prepaid minutes and data from several carriers with no monthly fee, you just pay for it as you use it, but then you're paying for minutes as well as data.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#68

Post by Aloha »

True Story:

I worked on cellular buildouts in Seattle - we had a site in the City of Seattle proper to do a upgrade on the equipment there - its a relatively painless process (swap out hardware at bottom, new antennas, add tower top radios, replace coax on tower with hybrid cables with DC and Fiber in them), yet it took three years to get permits issued. In Federal Way there was another site of similar configuration (Monopole, same gear in both locations), it took less than 30 days to get the permit issued.

If you want to know why your network is so slow, and why cellular service can be expensive - thats why. Endless process, neighbors complaining about towers (radiation, unsightliness, noise, opposed to construction traffic for a week), and the people needed to shove the paperwork along.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#69

Post by Aloha »

the_evacuator wrote: post #34

My neighborhood Nextdoor is full of NIMBY on this topic. Apparently electrosensitivity afflicts some 90-95% of people who have the free time to go to city council meetings at 3pm on weekdays. Shungite pendants have been recommended to fend off the illnesses caused by radiation. Even the local school does not have wifi because some local bozo said his kids were "injured" by EM fields, not just any fields but specifica…

I know some people are sensitive to RF radiation - I know I am, but generally only when the measured field strength is well outside of 'safe' bounds ;-)

Show me double-blind testing of someone being able to accurately pin point an access point or cell site however, and I've got a job for them.

Re: The Debate Over Neighborhood Zoning Could Hold Up Fast 5G Wireless for Years

#70

Post by mattrices »

rayiner wrote: post #46
konschubert wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people living there aren't left behind too much. It is in your best interest to retain some social cohesion.

Okay, but why do we have to foster that social cohesion in the most expensive way possible? Why demand that connectivity in these rural areas be by wireline instead of much cheaper wireless? Okay, people need access. Let’s get it done as cheaply and with as little market distortion as possible. The thing that does that is wireless.

No one will be starting an internet company in a location where there is only mobile internet.

>lets get it done as cheaply and with as little market distortion as possible.

Why do people act like they're paying for personally? This was already agreed upon by communication companies when they were allowed to monopolize much higher ROI urban markets. The whole point was that the high ROI markets would fund the development of the rest of the infrastructure.

Sandbagging the bandwidth of the rural markets is creating an information void that ends up sandbagging support for research and development in other areas.

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