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China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

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Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#31

Post by stevenwoo »

EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

Laughing at a confirmation hearing is not protected speech.

Though the article says what happened after she laughed is why she got convicted. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/us/code-pink-sessions-lau...

I think even in the UK parliament the opposition makes fun of and laughs at each other without fear of prosecution.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#32

Post by ethnic_throw »

swsieber wrote: post #22
omarforgotpwd wrote: post #9

These laws are starting to appear now because for the first time AI and machine learning are making censorship at this scale economically feasible.

* making attempts of censorship at this scale successful. There will be false positives and negatives. Lots. But, this is a really good insight . Why play whack a mole when you have a mole recognition guided bazooka. No more moles.

> There will be false positives and negatives. Lots.

And as usual, the people who appear to be targetted with the laws (the four digital horsemen) will figure out simple workarounds, so the laws really only harm honest people.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#33

Post by Retric »

scottLobster wrote: post #23
brd wrote: post #10

The regulations also demand that all chat room users in mainland China verify their real identity... Effective 8 October, the following types of content will be prohibited in chat groups on China-based messaging platforms: 1. Sensitive political content 2. Rumors 3... Holy shit. What is this going to do to the Chinese tech scene? The liability being created here is crazy to consider. Lets all hope these practices are…

I'm no expert on China, but this fits the pattern of them making extreme laws (ie death penalty for corruption) and then selectively enforcing them. Laws are tools for the party to use when it feels it might benefit, not universal rules.

What's really interesting about this is how unstable it makes the country. Clamp down and eventually you end up in a USSR situation where the government suddenly disintegrates with little real warning because there is no feedback loop to maintain stability.

Things seem ok because everyone ends up walking around pretending things are good even the people enforcing the rules. Untill you get a little spark and suddenly nobody is willing to stop it.

PS: I am not saying it's going to happen, but I expect the odds of complete failure in the next 20 years are well over 5%. And if it does fail things could get insanely ugly.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#34

Post by quotemstr »

EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

> The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech!

And that's why it's important to fight those who would introduce Chinese-like censorship to the west in the name of combating "hate speech" or whatever else tickles the moral panic of the day. Efforts like Google's Conversation AI seriously worry me: they have the potential to shape thought the same way that the Chinese approach does.

In a sense, it doesn't really matter whether it's the government or a big corporation that performs automated censorship. Either way, your life can be adversely and drastically altered because some god damn neuron tripped over its activation function and called you a monster.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#35

Post by CrystalLangUser »

stevenwoo wrote: post #31
EGreg wrote: post #20

Makes me so happy to live in what is probably the country with the most freedom of speech. The USA may be behind other countries in some things but not freedom of speech! If you live in a country with such draconian (and increasing) measures, there is only one thing to do: Use encryption. If only a few people use it, then they are targeted. If merely 10% of people use an encrypted protocol, it may be blocked. But if…

Laughing at a confirmation hearing is not protected speech. Though the article says what happened after she laughed is why she got convicted. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/us/code-pink-sessions-lau... I think even in the UK parliament the opposition makes fun of and laughs at each other without fear of prosecution.

It's not about laughing, it's about being disorderly. Has little to do with "free speech", stop click baiting.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#36

Post by oculusthrift »

mirimir wrote: post #18
yarg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Communist Party does not practice communism - it never has. They are no more communists than the DPRK is democratic. Communism was co-opted very early on and became just another form of authoritarianism.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#37

Post by Chiba-City »

Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt. They will export more young utility focused entrepreneurs fed up and not wanting in to that domineering state whacking their friends. We had a different colonial trajectory, but our own McCarthy era had disastrous cascading outcomes. "Rights to be forgotten" is another peculiar notion popular in some TV propaganda driven Western countries loving makeovers. Keep on rocking in the free world while it lasts.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#38

Post by smegel »

Chiba-City wrote: post #37

Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt. They will export more young utility focused entrepreneurs fed up and not wanting in to that domineering state whacking their friends. We had a different colonial trajectory, but our own McCarthy era had disastrous cascading outcomes. "Rights to be forgotten" is another peculiar notion popular in some TV propaganda driven Western countries loving makeovers. Ke…

Don't underestimate the nationalism of young Chinese.

And I very much doubt the CP is going to go after administrators who on-the-whole moderate with a pro-Beijing slant because they took 5 minutes too many to delete a comment.

Making assumptions that all young people hate the CP and would betray their country to the west at first opportunity sounds like one of those classic mistakes the West makes when it projects it's own sensibilities onto the world.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#39

Post by sushcount »

Chiba-City wrote: post #37

Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt. They will export more young utility focused entrepreneurs fed up and not wanting in to that domineering state whacking their friends. We had a different colonial trajectory, but our own McCarthy era had disastrous cascading outcomes. "Rights to be forgotten" is another peculiar notion popular in some TV propaganda driven Western countries loving makeovers. Ke…

> Their bottom up innovation will come to a screeching halt

China didn't have much innovation coming out to start with. China mainly did the steal/force transfer/borrow technology thing.

Re: China Makes Chat Group Administrators Criminally Liable for Unlawful Messages

#40

Post by quotemstr »

oculusthrift wrote: post #36
mirimir wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this can't be stressed or repeated enough! The Soviet Communist Party was/is rather like Scientology. At the noob level, in the Pioneers (a lot like US Boy Scouts) it was all about ideals/ideology and honor. At some point, you realized that members got nice perks. More money. Access to stores that carried better food and stuff. And eventually, as you got into higher-level leadership, you started to get that it w…

did you ever stop to wonder why every communist state ends up the same? is it possible they misunderstand human motivations and psychology and will always devolve to authoritarianism?

It's because utopian projects are at odds with human nature. Attempts to force human nature to conform to the ideals of utopians in power leads to tyranny and misery. We should bear this experience in mind when looking at our own utopian projects. It's easy to mock China's defiance of human nature, but it's much harder to look in the mirror ask whether we've gone too far in our own pursuits of "justice".
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