Earlier quoted context omitted.
The web platform has its virtues though. I can still load a webpage made in 1996 and at least read the text if nothing else; we can't say the same of erstwhile competitors like Flash, Silverlight, Java applets...
"Can still read text 20 years later" is a pretty low bar. What are the odds the javascript will work?
Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
161–170 of 297 posts
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#162Let me try to help this community regarding this article by providing some context. First, you need to realize that in the more than 50 years of my career I have always waited to be asked: Every paper, talk, and interview has been invited, never solicited. But there is a body of results from these that do put forward my opinions. This article was a surprise, because the interview was a few years ago for a book the in…
Do you think that your criticism against passive consumption etc might be incompatible not just with how things like modern computers and platforms are designed, but also with how most people are wired to behave?
That is, that it's not just that our tools constrain us to being passive consumers but that we also prefer, promote, and seek tools that make it easier for us to be passive consumers, because most of us rather not be bothered with creating?
If this is true, this might be (a) an inherent condition of man everywhere, or (b) something having to do with our general culture (above and beyond our tools).
I think that by talking about schools etc you alluded to (b), but could (a) also be the case?
Edit: I see that later on here you commented "We are set up genetically to learn the environment/culture around us. If we have media that seems to our nervous systems as an environment, we will try to learn those ways of thinking and doing, and even our conception of reality." which kind of answers my question.
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure if there's a problem at all. Learning how to do anything is much easier today than ever. Just type "how to do X" in google, and you will probably see a nice YouTube video, or a tutorial. If you get stuck, there are online forums with people willing to help for free, 24/7. Has the number of people who want to learn decreased? If so, was it because of iPhones/iPads?
When I do that I constantly think why is it so difficult to learn things? Why do I need to look at least 3 different sources just to confirm that they are not bullshitting me? After learning one thing related to the topic I want to learn I still have 99 to learn but I don't even know what those 99 things are. So basically I'm learning through dumb luck. Yes the reason is that I haven't reached the magical "bootstrap…
My point is that the discoverability today is much better than it was, say, 30 years ago. Back then your options were: go to a library, find and read good books, or find someone knowledgeable, and go talk to him in person, or write him a paper letter with your questions, and hope he responds.
For example, I remember how I was given my first access to a computer, with a command prompt blinking on a black screen, and I had not a slightest idea about what to do with it. Oh, and people nearby were not particularly keen on stopping what they were doing and explaining things to me. I was given a poorly translated DOS manual and a few simple BASIC programs to study. My computer access was limited to one hour, twice a week, and I remember how I thought this was so cool, and that I want to learn.
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most non-technical people I know have trouble with "simple" undo-redo and copy-paste ; this would only make it harder for them.
So what? It shouldn't be too difficult to implement three states of userspace and have it be selected upon login: - Novice - Advanced - Expert 'Novice' gives you simple 'undo'. 'Advanced' gives you 'undo' with history. And 'Expert' gives you branching. For example... For file-managers this could be made so, that the novice gets something like the Finder or WindowsExplorer. Basically a file-browser, that handles its p…
All 3?
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#165I recognize the Alan Kay I met at HP. Very sure of his own genius and quick to snarkily dismiss the genius of others. Case in point: The iPad and iPhone makes kids creative like no other tool has before. Kids know how to use it to text, exchange ideas or pictures of kittens, draw or sketch, learn how to program (Swift Playground anyone), take and edit photos. It is everything but a glorified TV where kids are passive…
What Kay, to this day, did not get, unlike Jobs, is the power of networking, both physical and human. What made the iPhone greater than the Dynabook ever would have been is the App Store, Interesting phrasing, considering that the iPhone did not come with the App Store. In fact, Apple's was the third software distribution platform to be released for iOS, after Installer.app and Cydia. Meanwhile, Alan Kay was working…
Which is irrelevant.
First, because it eventually came, and second, because whether they intend to put one out or not, obviously they couldn't create a first class API for third party use, fix public interfaces as much as possible, write documentation, create a store, et al, all while creating the first edition of a new product (which they didn't even knew if it would be a success or not).
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#166If people could understand what computing was about, the iPhone would not be a bad thing. But because people don’t understand what computing is about, they think they have it in the iPhone, and that illusion is as bad as the illusion that Guitar Hero is the same as a real guitar. That’s the simple long and the short of it. Some kids learn guitar. Some kids fantasize about learning guitar. Apple makes machines that en…
And why should he? Millions voted for Trump. Heck, millions also voted for Hillary. Neo-nazis, tele-evangelists, climate change denial, PC, twerking and Justin Bieber are all things. Does that sound like a society we should like how "most people think and live"?
>Why else would he constantly be disappointed in technology failing to turn all of humanity into always-on cultural creatives?
Because he actually loves people and doesn't want to see them squander their potential?
>He constantly talks about creating, learning, and education, but he doesn't bring any attention to any current work supporting these activities. He doesn't say, look, here's this great work being done for kids, and it's limited because the iPad needs this feature.
Err, he literally does just this in the interview.
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#167If people could understand what computing was about, the iPhone would not be a bad thing. But because people don’t understand what computing is about, they think they have it in the iPhone, and that illusion is as bad as the illusion that Guitar Hero is the same as a real guitar. That’s the simple long and the short of it. Some kids learn guitar. Some kids fantasize about learning guitar. Apple makes machines that en…
His "vision" is too self-centered and he expects people to live after his ideals but in fact people have better things to do than create art, or whatever. >They choose passive consumption The same person is likely an active producer in one area, and a passive consumer in others. I know I am.
That's what you see around you, talking to most people?
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#168Simplicity is closely related to education, and education is closely related to freedom. How are we supposed to take education seriously when we create devices of such complexity that they are essentially magic, and hand them to students? Before computers, complexity always had tight upper bounds. A watch could only get so complex before it wouldn't fit in its housing; and a car could only get so complex before it co…
Simlpicity is related to education in a sense that education is about teaching you a sequence of simple steps that lead toward the complex. Also, I think the perception of computers being magic doesn't come as much from their complexity as from the people who try to force the complex into looking like it's simple. They're hiding complexity so hard the end result doesn't make any logical sense, so it's magic. AK had a…
But that has mostly been used to manage complexity that already existed (e.g. physics, biology), or that is somehow inherent to our world (e.g. complexity resulting from social interactions among humans).
Now, we are creating our own, new kinds of complexity that didn't exist before. Software isn't there to help us manage complexity, it is adding to the complexity of our world, and dramatically so. That moves education backwards.
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#169Let me try to help this community regarding this article by providing some context. First, you need to realize that in the more than 50 years of my career I have always waited to be asked: Every paper, talk, and interview has been invited, never solicited. But there is a body of results from these that do put forward my opinions. This article was a surprise, because the interview was a few years ago for a book the in…
One question for Alan, if he's reading on (and of course thanks for decades of great work and inspiration). Do you think that your criticism against passive consumption etc might be incompatible not just with how things like modern computers and platforms are designed, but also with how most people are wired to behave? That is, that it's not just that our tools constrain us to being passive consumers but that we also…
Many of the things on my list for "civilization" are not directly in our genes or traditional cultures: reading and writing, deductive mathematics, empirical science of models, equal rights, representative governments, and many more. It's not that we do these well, or even willingly, but learning how to do them has made a very large difference. We can think of "civilization" not as a state of being that we've achieved, but as societies that are trying to become more civilized (including getting better ideas about what that should mean).
Most of the parts of civilization seem to be relatively recent inventions, and because the inventions are a bit more distant from our genetic and cultural normals, most of them are more difficult to learn. For example, as far as history can tell, schools were invented to concentrate the teaching of writing and reading, and they have been the vehicle for the more difficult learning of some of the other inventions.
And, sure, from history (and even from looking around) we can see that a very high percentage of people would be very happy with servants, even slaves, whether human or technological.
In Tom Paine's argument against the natural seeming monarchy in "Common Sense" he says don't worry about seems natural, but try to understand what will work the best. His great line is "Instead of having the King be the Law, we can have the Law be the King". In other words, we can design a better society than nature gives rise to, and we can learn to be citizens of that society through learning.
In other contexts I've pointed out that "user friendly" may not always be "friendly". For example, the chore of learning to read fluently is tough for many children, but what's important beyond being able read afterwards is that the learning of this skill has also forced other skills to be learned that bring forth different and stronger thinking processes.
Marketing, especially for consumers, is aimed at what people -want-, but real education has to be aimed at what people really -need-. Since people often don't want what they need, this creates a lot of tension, and makes what to do with early schooling a problem of rights as well as responsibilities.
One way to home in on what to do is to -- just for a while -- think only about what citizens of the 21st century need to have between their ears to not just get to the 22nd century, but to get there in better shape than we are now. Children born this year will be 83 in 2100. What will be their fate and the fate of their children?
If people cannot imagine that the situation they are in had to be invented and worked at and made, they will have a hard time to see that they have to learn how to work the garden as they become adults. If they grow up thinking as hunter gatherers they can only imagine making use of what is around them, and to move on after they've exhausted it. (But there is not place to move on to for the human race -- larger thoughts and views have to be learned as part of schooling and growing up.)
Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
When you say society always executes poorly, what alternative social reality are you comparing it with?
I don't understand - are you suggesting the only way to know you could have done something better, is to see someone else doing the same thing for comparison? That's certainly one way. Others include... all the ways you evaluate the execution of a company or project, when you don't have a direct competitor to compare it with, no?
The unfortunate associations of wanting society to "execute better" (i.e. the merger of industry and the state found under fascism) just underline the fact that applying performance measurements to human life/social phenomena is misguided. We don't all agree on the purpose of life or the nature of happiness, nor should we.