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Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

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Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more-discoverable undo I think he wanted more discoverable everything, the undo was just used as a particularly bad example on the iPhone. He wants the world to be more discoverable, to modify our very culture so that learning is easy (an example he gave was with math, so it's not just a small, 'smart' percentage of the population who actually gets it, but everyone absorbs it from a young age).

In the end i think he, like many intellectuals, overestimate people's interest in learning. Aka you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

People have little desire to get education force-fed into them. But they have plenty of desire to solve their own problems, whatever those problems are.

What I feel AK (and others) are advocating is for computing to support individual problem-solving in an iterative manner. You have this powerful general-purpose machine, you should be able to mold it towards something that solves the problem you currently have.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#142

Simplicity is closely related to education, and education is closely related to freedom. How are we supposed to take education seriously when we create devices of such complexity that they are essentially magic, and hand them to students? Before computers, complexity always had tight upper bounds. A watch could only get so complex before it wouldn't fit in its housing; and a car could only get so complex before it co…

Simlpicity is related to education in a sense that education is about teaching you a sequence of simple steps that lead toward the complex.

Also, I think the perception of computers being magic doesn't come as much from their complexity as from the people who try to force the complex into looking like it's simple. They're hiding complexity so hard the end result doesn't make any logical sense, so it's magic.

AK had a lovely quote in the article:

"Well, a saying I made up at PARC was, “Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible.” They’ve got simple things being simple and they have complex things being impossible, so that’s wrong."

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#143
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web platform has its virtues though. I can still load a webpage made in 1996 and at least read the text if nothing else; we can't say the same of erstwhile competitors like Flash, Silverlight, Java applets...

Perhaps. but try loading various present day pages without JS enabled. Many of produce just a white screen unless you turn on JS for 3+ external domains to the one you are trying to read. And once those load, you often find half the screen filled with persistent headers and footers. In effect Flash didn't go way, it was just turn into JS+CSS. And in large part i fear we get this because the people in charge are hell…

> And in large part i fear we get this because the people in charge are hell bent on recreating printed media in electronic form.

I agree. I see the conflict between designers and users to be one of the primary reasons for the current state of the web.

The conflict is about who gets to control how the content looks. The web was intended for users to have that control. The browser is your "user agent", you get to decide what and how gets fetched and displayed. The designers, on the other hand, want to treat webpages as color magazines - they want to have full control over what's shown on your screen, as for them the form is just as important as the actual content. They would happily serve you the web page as a PDF, if they could get away with it.

Personally, I'm firmly in the "user gets to control" camp, but the market prefers the "designers get to control" camp. So here we are, with web browsers continuously removing the ability to control anything, and the HTML/CSS accruing more and more layout control tools.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#144

Let me try to help this community regarding this article by providing some context. First, you need to realize that in the more than 50 years of my career I have always waited to be asked: Every paper, talk, and interview has been invited, never solicited. But there is a body of results from these that do put forward my opinions. This article was a surprise, because the interview was a few years ago for a book the in…

It is a privilege of modern media, like HN, that we get to interact with someone like Alan Kay. Just 30 years ago interacting with a person of great importance to a field only happened if you were lucky enough to work with them or go to school where they taught, which is just a lottery. And it's not just Alan Kay, there are many amazing visionaries who stop by HN. It truly is a privilege that we should not take for granted.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#145

Let me try to help this community regarding this article by providing some context. First, you need to realize that in the more than 50 years of my career I have always waited to be asked: Every paper, talk, and interview has been invited, never solicited. But there is a body of results from these that do put forward my opinions. This article was a surprise, because the interview was a few years ago for a book the in…

Wow, this article is a pretty egregious misinterpretation of those points. I didn't come away with anything even vaguely resembling what you just said, even if we disregard the factual errors. Candidly, your comments here make a lot more sense than some "We haven't yet built the DynaBook the way we should" piece.

People often ask me "Is this a Dynabook, is that a Dynabook?". Only about 5% of the idea was in packaging (and there were 2 other different packages contemplated in 1968 besides the tablet idea -- the HMD idea from Ivan, and the ubiquitous idea from Nicholas).

Almost all the thought I did was based on what had already been done in the ARPA community -- rendered as "services" -- and resculpted for the world of the child. It was all quite straightforwardly about what Steve later called "Wheels for the Mind".

If people are interested to see part of what we had in mind, a few of us including Dan Ingalls a few years ago revived a version of the Xerox Parc software from 1978 that Xerox had thrown away (it was rescued from a trash heap). This system was the vintage that Steve Jobs saw the next year when he visited in 1979. I used this system to make a presentation for a Ted Nelson tribute. It should start at 2:15. See what you think about what happens around 9:05. https://youtu.be/AnrlSqtpOkw?t=135

Next year will be the 50 anniversary of this idea, and many things have happened since then, so it would be crazy to hark back to a set of ideas that were in the context of being able to be built over 10 years, and would be ridiculous if we didn't have in 30 (that would be 1998, almost 20 years ago).

The large idea of ARPA/PARC was that desirable futures for humanity will require many difficult things to be learned beyond reading and writing and a few sums. If "equal rights" is to mean something over the entire planet, this will be very difficult. If we are to be able to deal with the whole planet as a complex system of which we complex systems are parts, then we'll have to learn a lot of things that our genetics are not particularly well set up for.

We can't say "well, most people aren't interested in stuff like this" because we want them to be voting citizens as part of their rights, and this means that a large part of their education needs to be learning how to argue in ways that make progress rather than just trying to win. This will require considerable knowledge and context.

The people who do say "well, most people aren't interested in stuff like this" are missing the world that we are in, and putting convenience and money making ahead of progress and even survival. That was crazy 50 years ago, and should be even more apparently crazy now.

We are set up genetically to learn the environment/culture around us. If we have media that seems to our nervous systems as an environment, we will try to learn those ways of thinking and doing, and even our conception of reality.

We can't let the commercial lure of "legal drugs" in the form of media and other forms put us into a narcotic sleep when we need to be tending and building our gardens.

The good news about "media as environment" was what attracted a lot of us 50 years ago -- that is, that making great environments/cultures will also be readily learned by our nervous systems. That was one of Montessori's great ideas, and one of McLuhan's great ideas, and it's a great idea we need to understand.

There aren't any parents around to take care of childish adults. We are it. So we need to grow up and take responsibility for our world, and the first actions should be to try to understand our actual situations.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#146
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if there's a problem at all. Learning how to do anything is much easier today than ever. Just type "how to do X" in google, and you will probably see a nice YouTube video, or a tutorial. If you get stuck, there are online forums with people willing to help for free, 24/7. Has the number of people who want to learn decreased? If so, was it because of iPhones/iPads?

It's not a problem. It's a way things can be better.

Sure, nothing wrong with trying to make things more discoverable. I think the first step towards this goal could be making an app which implements what AK is talking about. I'm not sure what this app would be like, or for, but if someone makes it, then we can test how effective are his ideas. You don't have to redesign an iPad to do this.

On the other hand, things can (and probably will) get better organically. The iPad/iPhone is only 10 years old. In that time it has improved both in terms of hardware (e.g. stylus for iPad, 3d touch, extra sensors, slo-mo video recording), and software (voice recognition, Siri, AppStore, multi-tasking, StreetView, even something as simple as cut and paste - none of that was available in iOS 1!). In a few years we will move to smart glasses and virtual/augmented reality. My guess is it will make learning experience better for everyone.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this article is a pretty egregious misinterpretation of those points. I didn't come away with anything even vaguely resembling what you just said, even if we disregard the factual errors. Candidly, your comments here make a lot more sense than some "We haven't yet built the DynaBook the way we should" piece.

People often ask me "Is this a Dynabook, is that a Dynabook?". Only about 5% of the idea was in packaging (and there were 2 other different packages contemplated in 1968 besides the tablet idea -- the HMD idea from Ivan, and the ubiquitous idea from Nicholas). Almost all the thought I did was based on what had already been done in the ARPA community -- rendered as "services" -- and resculpted for the world of the chi…

I'm interested to see if you've seen the concepts of atemporality[1] and network culture[2] floating around. Basically, the core thesis associated with these is that we have adopted the internet as our primary mode of processing information, and have as such lost the sense of a cohesive narrative that is inherent in reading a book/essay, or listening to a whole talk, in the process.

You become fully immersed in Plato's worldview when reading The Republic, but if you were see someone explaining the allegory of the cave in the absence of a wider context you will only take the elements which fit your worldview and not his wider conception of knowledge.

I think this ties into what happened to the concept of a centralised computer network, working for the good of humanity, turning into todays fractured silos, working to mine individuals for profit.

[1]http://index.varnelis.net/network_culture/1_time_history_und... [2]http://index.varnelis.net/network_culture

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#148
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Hackernews there was once a skeptic of postmodernism who got into a debate with a Derrida fan. The skeptic said "If deconstruction is not BS, how about you explain to us, in plain English, what it's all about." The Derrida fan replied "No. How about you demonstrate that you've read Husserl, Heidegger, Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud, and Levinas. Then we can begin to talk about Derrida." If Alan Kay were like the Derrida…

The basic problem there is that no company in the industry, from Apple all the way to the lowliest gray box manufacturer in China is not interested in that. OLPC tried, it got hoodwinked by Microsoft et al. Mozilla tried, FirefoxOS bombed. Hell even Linux is turning ever more complex an opaque year by year. Simple thing is that such flexibility self support do not sell widgets and support contracts, and thus company…

OLPC and Firefox OS are not examples of projects that pushed the idea of an OS and application stack that could be understood by a single person. To get a better idea of what Alan Kay has been working towards I'd recommend checking out the STEPS project.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often ask me "Is this a Dynabook, is that a Dynabook?". Only about 5% of the idea was in packaging (and there were 2 other different packages contemplated in 1968 besides the tablet idea -- the HMD idea from Ivan, and the ubiquitous idea from Nicholas). Almost all the thought I did was based on what had already been done in the ARPA community -- rendered as "services" -- and resculpted for the world of the chi…

I'm interested to see if you've seen the concepts of atemporality[1] and network culture[2] floating around. Basically, the core thesis associated with these is that we have adopted the internet as our primary mode of processing information, and have as such lost the sense of a cohesive narrative that is inherent in reading a book/essay, or listening to a whole talk, in the process. You become fully immersed in Plato…

Thanks for the references. I haven't seen these, but the ideas have been around since the mid-60s by virtue of a number of the researchers back then having delved into McLuhan, Mumford, Innis, etc. and applied the ideas to the contemplated revolutions in personal computing and networking media we were trying to invent.

I think a big point here is that going to a network culture doesn't mandate losing narrative, it just makes the probability much higher for people who are not self-conscious about their surrounding contexts. If we take a look at Socrates (portrayed as an oral culture genius) complaining about writing -- e.g. it removes the need to remember and so we will lose this, etc. -- we also have to realize that we are reading this from a very good early writer in Plato. Both of them loved irony, and if we look at this from that point of view, Plato is actually saying "Guess what? If you -decide- to remember while reading then you get the best of both worlds -- you'll get the stuff between your ears where it will do you the most good -and- you will have gotten it many times faster than listening, usually in a better form, and from many more resources than oral culture provides".

This was the idea in the 60s: provide something much better -- and by the way it includes narrative and new possibilities for narrative -- but then like reading and writing, teach what it is in the schools so that a pop culture version which misses most of the new powers is avoided.

Re: Alan Kay is still waiting for his dream to come true

#150

Let me try to help this community regarding this article by providing some context. First, you need to realize that in the more than 50 years of my career I have always waited to be asked: Every paper, talk, and interview has been invited, never solicited. But there is a body of results from these that do put forward my opinions. This article was a surprise, because the interview was a few years ago for a book the in…

The article was a pleasure to read. I like the way you present important issues in a high-level way, it always puts me into a mood where I sense what is possible, because, just look at what has already been done! The origins of Montessori were unknown to me, and I tried out the thing with the ruler and the iPad :-)

It seems to me that the combination of an iPad Pro 12.9, Apple Pencil, and a bluetooth keyboard is a great environment for computing. It's just that the software running on it is not really that great, but there is no reason why it should not be possible to make much much much better software for it.

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