To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine • Hacker News Board

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#101

Post by hiram112 » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #54

WalterSear wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, "traditional Chinese Medicine" was invented by Mao because he couldn't afford to give his half billion strong agrarian proletariat actual medicine and didn't want them to notice. >“Even though I believe we should promote Chinese medicine,” Mao told him, “I personally do not believe in it. I don’t take Chinese medicine.” > In 1923, Lu Xun, China’s most famous man of letters, reflected critically…

It's interesting how we have this cohort of people who don't use TCM, have strong opinions about it, and have no trouble finding sources to back up their claims. I don't argue with them. Because at one time I knew TCM was bullshit too. Then we have this other cohort of people with chronic issues who exhausted, or are unsatisfied with, the treatments offered by western medicine. They go on to discover TCM, are healed…

Never underestimate the power of the placebo.

That being said, there are many ailments that aren't adequately treated by Western Medicine - either because we don't know enough yet or are still constrained by the profit motive to find solutions to symptoms, not cures and whole well being.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#102

Post by aravind_mc » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

rsync wrote: post #67

ianai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you so for core conditioning and strength? Also I'm looking for ways to put together a workstation in the horizontal position

"What do you so for core conditioning and strength?" I tend to avoid recommending specific exercises - instead I like to recommend that you think of your trunk in three dimensions and apply weight bearing loads to at least every 90 degrees around that circle (which implies at least four exercises). So that would mean your flexing your back, your abs, and each of your two sides (Abdominal external oblique, I think). I…

For a back pain sufferer, the comment about your body becoming stronger after walking 4-5 miles is a really encouraging one.

And frankly, even if the system doesn't work for everyone, the way you have deconstructed it into 45 degree angles is something I have never come across before, so kudos to you for figuring this out.

I have the same question as the sibling. Where did you read about this stuff?

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#103

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

aravind_mc wrote: post #102

rsync wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What do you so for core conditioning and strength?" I tend to avoid recommending specific exercises - instead I like to recommend that you think of your trunk in three dimensions and apply weight bearing loads to at least every 90 degrees around that circle (which implies at least four exercises). So that would mean your flexing your back, your abs, and each of your two sides (Abdominal external oblique, I think). I…

For a back pain sufferer, the comment about your body becoming stronger after walking 4-5 miles is a really encouraging one. And frankly, even if the system doesn't work for everyone, the way you have deconstructed it into 45 degree angles is something I have never come across before, so kudos to you for figuring this out. I have the same question as the sibling. Where did you read about this stuff?

[deleted]

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#104

Post by twblalock » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 2:54 AM UTC

The worst part about having back pain is that everyone you tell about it recommends some kind of remedy.

That is evident in most of the replies in these threads.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#105

Post by Mz » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 3:05 AM UTC

katastic wrote: post #5

I've been living this horror for six years. If I could just magically stop using medicine and not being treated like a drug addict for merely taking prescribed medicine by all walks of society (from cops, to nurses, to neighbors), don't you think I'd have already fucking taken that choice? The majority of people don't want to be on pills. They want to get better. If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed,…

I've been living this horror for six years.

If I'm in too much pain to physically get out of bed, how am I supposed to exercise?

I would email you, but you have no contact info. I imagine I will regret posting this. I usually do. Some broken part of my brain has yet to master hearing of someone else's suffering and going "Welp, not my problem!" It is still on my To Do list.

Some general thoughts, that may or may not be useful to you:

One of the benefits of exercise is that it moves lymph. This is how the body cleans your tissues. It is a necessary function for doing repair work. Think of how old buildings get rehabbed: The first step is to rent a giant dumpster and start doing demolition work and hauling out the trash.

Any muscle action at all will help move lymph. If you just can't do anything, warm salt water baths and massage can help your body take out the trash.

The other thing is you probably are dehydrated and suffering various nutrient shortfalls. The body needs resources to rebuild. After major surgery, you need major resources. Doctors never seem to prescribe higher nutrition during recovery. Additionally, medications routinely interfere with the absorption of certain nutrients or cause wasting of those nutrients. You should google this for every medication you take and up your intake of nutrients your drugs are known to deplete.

Spine surgery involves both bones and nerves. Nerves need extra B vitamins and specific fats to help heal. Bones need extra calcium, magnesium, vitamin D, vitamin K and B vitamins to help heal. Bone marrow needs healthy fats.

Some best practices:

Keep a food journal. Read up on symptoms of specific nutrient deficiencies. Taking supplements is easier at first than making dietary changes because you can do a better job of isolating specific variables because you can just add X nutrient instead of swapping one food for another. Do one new thing every week or two so you can watch how it plays out.

Sugar, mint and non drug antiinflammatories (like cinnamon and hot peppers) can help make pain more bearable.

Source: 16+ years of firsthand experience. (I used to be bedridden, and I spent 3.5 years in please-kill-me-now pain. I got myself better after doctors basically wrote me off.)

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#106

Post by rsync » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 3:18 AM UTC

aravind_mc wrote: post #102

rsync wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What do you so for core conditioning and strength?" I tend to avoid recommending specific exercises - instead I like to recommend that you think of your trunk in three dimensions and apply weight bearing loads to at least every 90 degrees around that circle (which implies at least four exercises). So that would mean your flexing your back, your abs, and each of your two sides (Abdominal external oblique, I think). I…

For a back pain sufferer, the comment about your body becoming stronger after walking 4-5 miles is a really encouraging one. And frankly, even if the system doesn't work for everyone, the way you have deconstructed it into 45 degree angles is something I have never come across before, so kudos to you for figuring this out. I have the same question as the sibling. Where did you read about this stuff?

No books. I have been lifting weights regularly since I was 14 and was a wrestler through school, etc. ... it's just something I've spent enough time and though on to learn something.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#107

Post by sunstone » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 3:56 AM UTC

Every back is different, your mileage may vary. I hurt my back to the point I couldn't take a running step for 3 years. Serious lower back spasms for a year at least. If you've messed with the cartilage/disks of your vertibrae you're looking at at least a year of gentle recovery.

Now I can sit all day (and run) but I need a chair with a seat plate that can tilt forward (basically pelvic tilt while sitting).

If you're new to back injury the most important thing that they don't tell you is: the damage you do today to your back won't be evident until tomorrow. The feed back loop is way too slow.

In my experience, the best treatment for lower back pain is (once the cartilage is repaired) to walk, no matter how bent over you are, walk and walk some more.

I think the stretching etc can be helpful too but I haven't tried that. I'm just very careful about how I use my back when I'm bending over.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#108

Post by nnfy » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 4:46 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #87

nnfy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also suffer from migraines, although not nearly as severe as yours. I strongly recommend you look into kratom for pain management. I generally take a small dose of two grams alongside 200mg ibuprofen and a 10 hour headache will usually disappear within 30-60 minutes. I won't promise that you'll get the same results, but if you're desperate, kratom is relatively benign, cheap, and helps for all kinds of pain.

I would but I don't want to run afoul of any legal issues. Plus I'm on stuff that may interfere. My current regiment is working pretty well. My latest abortive measure was to apply infrared heat to my trapezius muscle (all the way up to my forehead), tens to the base of the trapezius and back of my neck, and go into the "crocodile" yoga pose for an hour. (I used a very light pillow to make it more comfortable). It to…

Kratom is still legal. However, it does interfere with many drugs because of the enzyme it inhibits.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#109

Post by ksenzee » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 5:39 AM UTC

Disruptive_Dave wrote: post #82

ransom1538 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey man after 3 years I just finally beat back pain - it is possible. In my case it was physical therapy until i understood the routine to strengthen the core and stretching. I also changed how I work: no sitting, ever. Laying or standing. I lost weight (i am 6'1 got down to 165). I took stretching serious, you should be able to touch your toes. You need to drink milk. For depression find a position to work while you…

Slight caveat here: for those with sacroiliitis or SI joint issues, "sitting down is bad for you" is NOT necessarily the answer. In many cases standing is worse for you than sitting. Don't prescribe to generalities, of course, is the lesson.

Thank you for pointing this out. I have chronic SI joint problems, and people always think I should be standing. Would not help.

Re: To treat back pain, look to the brain not the spine

#110

Post by gforge » Sun, Sep 17, 2017, 6:44 AM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #77

gforge wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, there are serious issues with many of the drug treatments and psychiatry has some dark history - but so does orthopaedics (e.g. the pseudotumors associated with hip resurfacing). Even if anti-depressants are no more effective than placebo, I still think a knife may be an even worse alternative and I've seen patients spiraling down into an abyss of pain after repeated failed surgeries. My hope is that if we a…

Thanks for responding, and for the links. > I've seen patients spiraling down into an abyss of pain after repeated failed surgeries. I think surgery is commonly seen as better than doing nothing. Someone I know has some deterioration from cortisone medications. He just heard that his neck implant didn't fail, now the next joint down is gone. He'd rather not have surgery again, but is rather miserable currently, and s…

There is an inertia but I would say that it is often of benefit to the patients. The problem is that I as a surgeon love to operate (note that we don't even have a monetary incentive) and I truly want to help my patients. This makes me biased and the inertia has saved me quite a few times for starting performing new cool procedures.

The biggest problem is that we often have a big problem with discontinuing treatment s, see my post on clavicle fractures http://gforge.se/2017/08/clavicle-gate/ I am not a cardiologist so I don't know the full details on the statins, but I would be careful not to skip them. Cardiovascular mortality has decreased hugely the last decades and this one of the major treatments - they must be doing something right.

Also be careful of flat-earth arguments, there are plenty of people who want to disprove medicine - some of us are researchers but others are just writing blog posts after finding a single article contradicting a treatment. It is incredibly hard to do medical research, it takes years to recruit patients and collect data. You always think that there is a ton of patients with this condition and then you find that the inclusion and exclusion criteria that you believed to be so brilliant (others had forgotten about them in their studies) actually get in your way of being able to finish the study. If this wasn't enough, once you are done with disproving the treatment, you will find that the person that a few years ago popularized it is no longer doing it... They would never do that, now they're doing treatment B, a completely different thing. It's a game of whack-a-mole.