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“Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

cdc.gov

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Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#41

Post by democracy »

designcode wrote: post #5
atom_enger wrote: post #2

So what do we do? I don't believe in making them illegal as that infringes on others rights to choose what they put in their body, but I do feel for the kids and family members who have to put up with the habit.

Do what we’ve done in Australia. Tax them very heavily so price is high, and remove them from being seen in shops

Yes, make the unfortunate pay even more. And it is the poor who are heavy smokers. There was a Russian joke when the government announces that alcohol price is going up so the boy is asking his dad if he is going to drink less and the father replies that probably the son will eat less instead. And ciggies are still in shops. Making it more expensive is a dumb idea.

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#42

Post by tmnvix »

Frondo wrote: post #12
atom_enger wrote: post #2

So what do we do? I don't believe in making them illegal as that infringes on others rights to choose what they put in their body, but I do feel for the kids and family members who have to put up with the habit.

What's the external cost of a smoker's choice to smoke, on shortened lifespan, lost time to medical care, whatever? What's the externality society bears for the individual's pleasure? Figure that out, and assign tobacco taxes accordingly.

Long since past the point of smokers in Australia and NZ paying their own healthcare costs. Smokers subsidise the public healthcare system.

Unfortunately, the statistics are often muddied by externalised costs being assumed to include ~50k/year of lost life per smoker along with 'lost future income taxes'.

Generally smokers die earlier and more quickly. Ironically, living a very long life might actually cost society more due to many more years of intensive healthcare costs at the end of a long life.

I once heard an actuary claim that the tobacco taxes paid by smokers in NZ, if used for private health insurance for the individual, would afford the absolute best health cover available with funds to spare.

I apologise for not citing sources for the above claims. Quite frankly I am lazy and it would take some time (I have spent hours researching this in the past). You'll just have to take this as opinion.

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#43

Post by DanBC »

seasonalgrit wrote: post #36
saurik wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered switching to an e-cigrarette without the intention of quitting (which is where I think most people trip up)? I have a friend who uses a balance of nicotine in his e-cigarette that is way way more nicotine than he would ever get from a normal cigarette, he is extremely happy (and claims that the real trick is you need to not use a cheap e-cigarette but get one that nails the temperature consistentl…

"as far as we can all tell he is avoiding the horrible health effects" No. Nicotine is a carcinogen. Forgive my surprise, but I'm absolutely blown away that this isn't common knowledge in 2017. Edit: I appreciate the distinction that folks are making as far as what constitutes a carcinogen. Yes, the science we have today falls short of us classifying nicotine as a 'complete carcinogen'. If that makes you sleep better…

It's a bit more complicated than that.

(36MB pdf) Page 113 https://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/reports/50-years-of-p...

> Cancer

> Nicotine is a highly bioactive compound with effects ranging from being a natural pesticide in tobacco leaves to causing addiction in tobacco users. For cancer, there is some biological basis for proposing that nicotine may promote cancer based on experimental studies that have limitations in replicating human exposure and on mechanistic studies, but human evidence is lacking (Lee et al. 2005, 2012; Dasgupta and Chellappan 2006; Zheng et al. 2007; Catassi et al. 2008; Chen et al. 2008b, 2010; Egleton et al. 2008).

(It's a couple of pages, too long to paste here. But all the people posting wikipedia links might also want to read it.)

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#45

Post by saghm »

atom_enger wrote: post #2

So what do we do? I don't believe in making them illegal as that infringes on others rights to choose what they put in their body, but I do feel for the kids and family members who have to put up with the habit.

Possibly nothing; I'd imagine that the vast majority of these deaths are of people from older generations when smoking weed ubiquitous. I think that smoking is a lot less popular in younger generations, so in another generation the number of smoking-related deaths will likely go down on its own.

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#46

Post by MertsA »

Frondo wrote: post #12
atom_enger wrote: post #2

So what do we do? I don't believe in making them illegal as that infringes on others rights to choose what they put in their body, but I do feel for the kids and family members who have to put up with the habit.

What's the external cost of a smoker's choice to smoke, on shortened lifespan, lost time to medical care, whatever? What's the externality society bears for the individual's pleasure? Figure that out, and assign tobacco taxes accordingly.

I don't think there's really a fair way to do that. From a strictly monetary standpoint, smokers die many years earlier than non smokers. They also often live past the prime of their working life so those lost years equate to a tremendous amount of money saved in reduced payouts for social security, medicare, pensions, etc.

Even if we could assign a strict dollar amount to the long term cost of a pack of cigarettes I don't think that would be a useful thing to do. The cost to society does not factor in the cost to the consumer and while I'm normally pretty libertarian about such things we're talking about a very addictive drug here.

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#47

Post by clumsysmurf »

maccard wrote: post #28
clumsysmurf wrote: post #16

Its also a nightmare when you rent. Luckily I see more rental properties banning smoking, but they are still in the minority. Its not just smoke wafting in from neighbors, but also the third hand smoke deposited in the unit you may be exposed to by previous smokers. For example, its almost impossible to remove the third hand smoke from ventilation systems that use flexible duct tubing because they tear. The cost of a…

Where are you based? I've been in many rental properties over the last 10 years; my own, my parents, and friends of. Oth of us. Every single one I've seen has banned smoking.

Arizona - but to clarify, I'm talking about apartments. For example the Mark Taylor properties I've stayed at permit smoking.

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#49

Post by seasonalgrit »

adwi wrote: post #40
seasonalgrit wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"as far as we can all tell he is avoiding the horrible health effects" No. Nicotine is a carcinogen. Forgive my surprise, but I'm absolutely blown away that this isn't common knowledge in 2017. Edit: I appreciate the distinction that folks are making as far as what constitutes a carcinogen. Yes, the science we have today falls short of us classifying nicotine as a 'complete carcinogen'. If that makes you sleep better…

Source please.

i did not downvote you. asking for a source is not a bad thing.

in addition to what i posted above, this paper is a good summary of what we know at this point: doi:10.1038/nrc3725

Re: “Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the US each year.”

#50

Post by grzm »

seasonalgrit wrote: post #36
saurik wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered switching to an e-cigrarette without the intention of quitting (which is where I think most people trip up)? I have a friend who uses a balance of nicotine in his e-cigarette that is way way more nicotine than he would ever get from a normal cigarette, he is extremely happy (and claims that the real trick is you need to not use a cheap e-cigarette but get one that nails the temperature consistentl…

"as far as we can all tell he is avoiding the horrible health effects" No. Nicotine is a carcinogen. Forgive my surprise, but I'm absolutely blown away that this isn't common knowledge in 2017. Edit: I appreciate the distinction that folks are making as far as what constitutes a carcinogen. Yes, the science we have today falls short of us classifying nicotine as a 'complete carcinogen'. If that makes you sleep better…

> I appreciate the distinction that folks are making as far as what constitutes a carcinogen.

You do yourself a disservice by so stridently and repeatedly claiming "Nicotine is a carcinogen." There are plenty of compounds we're exposed to through tobacco use that are uncontroversially carcinogenic that you could point to instead (if you feel the need to name them explicitly), as well as a lot of other nastiness like formaldehyde as you point out above. Dwelling and defending this weaker position makes it easier for uncharitable readers to dismiss you.

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